Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
So to address the main issues so far: Could the data be "tainted" by being derived from a copyrighted map: - Is it just Google that is the risk here? If SourceLondon used Ordnance Survey maps to determine the node locations, would there not be a similar issue? So the only circumstance where the data wouldn't have been tainted is if it had been captured locally as a co-ordinate from a GPS device? - If it turns out the data is tainted in this way, I can't import the nodes into the main OSM database (wouldn't even uploading a note at the location break licensing terms?), but can I provide it as a geojson file that local surveyors could load into a mapping app and use to do a local survey, manually placing the nodes in the appropriate place? What is the quality of the data? - I could upload a geojson file which a small number of volunteers could download and sample the points. Is there any app/site that facilitates collaborating on sample outcomes? This would give an impression of the quality of the data. I see that user jnicho02 on the wiki sampled one data point and found it to be on the wrong side of the road, but clearly visible from where the map marker had been placed. Could that be within the GPS margin of error of the capturing device? Is a marker which is placed a few metres out of place worse than no marker at all? Is data that is slightly inaccurate at the point of import worse than the thousands of nodes and ways that inaccurate by not being maintained by anyone? In the previous thread about chargepoints from a couple of months ago, someone questioned whether having this data in OSM would be more useful than the dedicated apps by the infratructure providers which would also be able to indicate whether the point is currently in service and currently in use. I still like the idea of having this data in OSM for a number of reasons: - It would be nice if OSM became the most complete source for all charging points, with open data on all providers - It would allow users to compare the available infrastructure from each provider in their area from an impartial source - We can record the ID number from each provider which might later allow someone to mash data from OSM with data from the provider API on chargepoint status. Thanks for the feedback so far. It feels like a lot of work for one provider in one area, but I'm hopeful this will scale up quickly, and this one provider alone will quadruple the number of charge points listed on OSM in London. Steven On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:58, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > > Aug 18, 2020, 13:18 by steven.hirsch...@gmail.com: > > And what would the conflation exercise be? Are we allowed to put the > points on a non-OSM map to ask local mappers to survey? > > It would be better to put location on OSM map and ask mappers to > survey there. > > As long as they survey and enter data based on what they surveyed > and external source will be used solely to plan trip - AFAIK it should be > fine. > > With non-OSM map there is risk that some of them will start copying such map. > > (there is risk that some of mappers will start copying just marker > positions, without survey, that is why it should be limited to more > experienced mappers and done in way encouraging actual survey > - so no putting such data into Maproulette and so on) > > Of course I won't begin an import without seeking consensus first - > this was the start of such an attempt! > > +1 > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
18 Aug 2020, 16:28 by aamac...@gmail.com: > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 09:09, Rob Nickerson <> rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> For me, once licencing issues have been fully resolved, it comes down to >> accuracy of data. >> >> For example the TfL cycle data is great as it has been collected by ground >> survey and with two photos of everything. Some other third party data has >> been less accurate. At this point it becomes tricky as we've no agreed >> threshold. We all know that OSM is not perfect but less clear on what level >> of accuracy we require for imports. >> > > Wouldn't this be partially dependent on the level of mapping in the area in > question? > And on preferences of a local community. I am not aware about any such case, but local community may even have stance "we are against all imports" > > In sparsely mapped regions even relatively coarse data might be an > improvement. In areas where individual gas lamps have been accurately placed > higher precision would be required to avoid misleading entries. +1___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 09:09, Rob Nickerson wrote: > For me, once licencing issues have been fully resolved, it comes down to > accuracy of data. > > For example the TfL cycle data is great as it has been collected by ground > survey and with two photos of everything. Some other third party data has > been less accurate. At this point it becomes tricky as we've no agreed > threshold. We all know that OSM is not perfect but less clear on what level > of accuracy we require for imports. > Wouldn't this be partially dependent on the level of mapping in the area in question? In sparsely mapped regions even relatively coarse data might be an improvement. In areas where individual gas lamps have been accurately placed higher precision would be required to avoid misleading entries. > > As for tools, consider Ilya's OSM Conflator tool. Works well for node data. > > Rob > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
On Tue, 2020-08-18 at 12:18 +0100, Steven Hirschorn wrote: > Are we allowed to put the points on a non-OSM map to ask local > mappers to survey? Legally I think it's a bit ambiguous, but current practice is to do exactly that. See tools like [1] where most of the data isn't compatible with the ODbL but they are overlaid for local mappers to survey and add them selves [2]. At a certain point it may be easier to "import to notes", but the current way at least has plausible deniability if any data provider was upset that there dataset was used to inform surveys. Cj [1] https://osm.mathmos.net/defib/ [2] https://osm.mathmos.net/defib/progress/NE/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
Aug 18, 2020, 13:18 by steven.hirsch...@gmail.com: > And what would the conflation exercise be? Are we allowed to put the > points on a non-OSM map to ask local mappers to survey? > It would be better to put location on OSM map and ask mappers to survey there. As long as they survey and enter data based on what they surveyed and external source will be used solely to plan trip - AFAIK it should be fine. With non-OSM map there is risk that some of them will start copying such map. (there is risk that some of mappers will start copying just marker positions, without survey, that is why it should be limited to more experienced mappers and done in way encouraging actual survey - so no putting such data into Maproulette and so on) > Of course I won't begin an import without seeking consensus first - > this was the start of such an attempt! > +1 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 12:01, wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:53:00 +0100 > From: Jez Nicholson > To: David Woolley > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > It is possible that the initial data from SourceLondon is licence tainted > as they manually created the points by using Google Maps. This would block > a straight import, but might allow for a conflation exercise. Hi Jez, Good point regarding the original source data, I'll try to find out how it was created. What happens if I don't get a completely unambiguous answer? And what would the conflation exercise be? Are we allowed to put the points on a non-OSM map to ask local mappers to survey? In response to Chris, I see that there was talk two months ago about adding Charging Points but it wasn't necessarily discussed as an import task until the national registry was discussed, and then there were questions about data quality. I'm happy to analyse the data quality of the provider datasets by sampling. Of course I won't begin an import without seeking consensus first - this was the start of such an attempt! Steven ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
Hi Steven, Nice work getting hold of SourceLondon, and for getting it on the wiki. It is possible that the initial data from SourceLondon is licence tainted as they manually created the points by using Google Maps. This would block a straight import, but might allow for a conflation exercise. Regards, Jez On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:19 AM David Woolley wrote: > On 18/08/2020 00:11, Steven Hirschorn wrote: > > I'm hoping to import a dataset of EV vehicle charging points in London. > > I've created a wiki page here: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SourceLondon > > > > There was a lot of discussion about importing EV charging station data > recently, so the first thing you should do is go through the list archives. > > Also, note that you need the agreement of the community before you start > any import. > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
On 18/08/2020 00:11, Steven Hirschorn wrote: I'm hoping to import a dataset of EV vehicle charging points in London. I've created a wiki page here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SourceLondon There was a lot of discussion about importing EV charging station data recently, so the first thing you should do is go through the list archives. Also, note that you need the agreement of the community before you start any import. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Marton, Shropshire
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 00:44, Philip Barnes wrote: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.62023=-3.07049#map=18/52.62023/-3.07049 Wonderful; thank you. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-GB] Proposal: Import EV charging point data
For me, once licencing issues have been fully resolved, it comes down to accuracy of data. For example the TfL cycle data is great as it has been collected by ground survey and with two photos of everything. Some other third party data has been less accurate. At this point it becomes tricky as we've no agreed threshold. We all know that OSM is not perfect but less clear on what level of accuracy we require for imports. As for tools, consider Ilya's OSM Conflator tool. Works well for node data. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
