Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Steve Doerr]

On 17/11/2020 22:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:
From my change request discussion it appears that the UPRN appeared on 
the road as part of a test of Robert's Mathmos matching.


The USRN and the UPRN tags showed the same number, I believe. The UPRN 
tag has now been removed leaving only the USRN, but the number concerned 
is not the USRN for that road.


Isn't there a sandbox for people to test things out without hitting the 
live database?


--
Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Jez Nicholson]

>From my change request discussion it appears that the UPRN appeared on the
road as part of a test of Robert's Mathmos matching.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 16:15 Mark Goodge,  wrote:

>
>
> On 17/11/2020 15:41, Robert Skedgell wrote:
>
> > Roads can have more than one USRN. I've come across some sections of
> > road which appear to have more than one Designated Street Name record
> > (possibly streets which cross authority boundaries?). In addition to
> > this, there may be records of types Unofficial Street Name, Officially
> > Described Street and Numbered Street.
>
> Trunk roads, in particular, will have individual USRNs in each highway
> authority they cross as well as an overall USRN for the entire length of
> the road. There are also USRNs which form a collection of roads.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Mark Goodge]

On 17/11/2020 15:41, Robert Skedgell wrote:


Roads can have more than one USRN. I've come across some sections of
road which appear to have more than one Designated Street Name record
(possibly streets which cross authority boundaries?). In addition to
this, there may be records of types Unofficial Street Name, Officially
Described Street and Numbered Street.


Trunk roads, in particular, will have individual USRNs in each highway 
authority they cross as well as an overall USRN for the entire length of 
the road. There are also USRNs which form a collection of roads.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Robert Skedgell]

On 17/11/2020 14:53, Cj Malone wrote:
> On Tue, 2020-11-17 at 14:10 +, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>> Whilst i'm here, am I correct that a UPRN can *only* be on a single
>> thing?
>> So anything in
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=ref%3AGB%3Auprn#values mo
>> re
>> than once is an error?
>>
>> ...or can a road have a USRN *and* a UPRN?
>
> As far as I know a road should have only 1 USRN, but it can have
> multiple UPRNs. I think it's mainly if it goes over a admin boundary,
> each area will have a UPRN but the road will have one USRN.
>
> Also OSM often has multiple ways per road, each of these ways should
> share a USRN and more often than not share the UPRN.

Roads can have more than one USRN. I've come across some sections of
road which appear to have more than one Designated Street Name record
(possibly streets which cross authority boundaries?). In addition to
this, there may be records of types Unofficial Street Name, Officially
Described Street and Numbered Street.

Details of the USRN specification are here
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/product-support/tech-spec/open-usrn-techspec-v1.1.pdf



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Mark Goodge]

On 17/11/2020 14:47, I wrote:


But, having said that


...or can a road have a USRN *and* a UPRN?

Yes. And, in this particular case:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/ref%3AGB%3Auprn=10071171668

(follow the Overpass turbo link to see it mapped)

what we have is what, from a mapping perspective, is a single road 
(Glazebury Way), but that comprises multiple OSM ways. So it's not 
unreasonable to add the UPRN to all the ways which make up the road.
However, in this case I think I am talking bollocks. Although the OSM 
mapper has assigned UPRN 10071171668 to Glazebrook Way, the OS OpenUPRN 
OpenUSRN and OpenMap lookups link it to Gairloch Close. If we look at 
Gairloch Close (USRN 3230053) on my USRN map:


https://uprn.uk/usrn/3230053

there's a single linked UPRN that appears to be on Glazebury Way, or at 
least the intersection of Glazebury Way and Gairloch Close, rather than 
one of the properties on Gairloch Close. Follow that link, and it's UPRN 
10071171668:


https://uprn.uk/10071171668

Now, there's nothing more we can discover from the maps and lookups, 
given that the OS open data doesn't tell us precisely what it is and the 
maps aren't sufficiently high-resolution. But if we cheat a bit and go 
to the location on Google Maps, then switch into street view:


https://goo.gl/maps/ojwFAP21D4HkUvX77

I have a strong hunch that UPRN 10071171668 is actually a subsurface 
property (eg, a utilities conduit) accessed via that manhole cover.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Cj Malone]

On Tue, 2020-11-17 at 14:10 +, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> Whilst i'm here, am I correct that a UPRN can *only* be on a single
> thing?
> So anything in
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=ref%3AGB%3Auprn#values mo
> re
> than once is an error?
> 
> ...or can a road have a USRN *and* a UPRN?

As far as I know a road should have only 1 USRN, but it can have
multiple UPRNs. I think it's mainly if it goes over a admin boundary,
each area will have a UPRN but the road will have one USRN.

Also OSM often has multiple ways per road, each of these ways should
share a USRN and more often than not share the UPRN.



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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Mark Goodge]

On 17/11/2020 14:10, Jez Nicholson wrote:
Whilst i'm here, am I correct that a UPRN can *only* be on a single 
thing? So anything in 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=ref%3AGB%3Auprn#values 
 
more than once is an error?


There is a one to one correspondance between UPRNs and addressable 
objects (in either the PAF or AddressBase). A single mappable entity may 
contain multiple addressable units (eg, a block of flats), so there can 
be multiple UPRNs on a single OSM object, since we don't normally 
subdivide buildings into individual units unless it can easily be mapped.


But the reverse isn't true. A single UPRN can only correctly be assigned 
to a single object. If it's being assigned to multiple objects then 
there's likely to be an error somewhere.


But, having said that


...or can a road have a USRN *and* a UPRN?

Yes. And, in this particular case:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/ref%3AGB%3Auprn=10071171668

(follow the Overpass turbo link to see it mapped)

what we have is what, from a mapping perspective, is a single road 
(Glazebury Way), but that comprises multiple OSM ways. So it's not 
unreasonable to add the UPRN to all the ways which make up the road.


Whether a road has a UPRN as well as a USRN is a bit inconsistent. As a 
general rule, roads which existed before UPRN/USRN addressing was rolled 
out will only have a USRN allocated. But new roads that are built as 
part of a new development will, typically, have a UPRN as the road 
usually exists before the houses (or industrial units) accessed from 
that road are built. So the road has to have its own entry in the UPRN 
database.


It is complicated, and the published documentation isn't particularly 
comprehensive. I'm still getting my head round it!


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Jez Nicholson]

Whilst i'm here, am I correct that a UPRN can *only* be on a single thing?
So anything in
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=ref%3AGB%3Auprn#values more
than once is an error?

...or can a road have a USRN *and* a UPRN?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:48 PM Jez Nicholson 
wrote:

> Well-spotted. I've updated it to, "UPRNs provide every property or object
> with a consistent, persistent, numerical identifier (often between 8 and 12
> digits, but not restricted to 12)".
>
> I know that you've been looking at UPRNs, so please add to the wiki page
> or discussions.
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:00 PM Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 17/11/2020 11:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>> > Following the fine efforts of a number of people to get ref:GB:uprn
>> > through the tag proposal process I have created
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:GB:uprn
>> > 
>> >
>> > Please add information to it, or discussions.
>>
>> One minor point on that. UPRNs aren't necessarily 12 digits. They're an
>> unsigned integer of (currently) up to 12 digits. UPRNs of 999
>> and below aren't zero-padded. They do, in fact, go all the way down to
>> UPRN 1.
>>
>> Mark
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Jez Nicholson]

Well-spotted. I've updated it to, "UPRNs provide every property or object
with a consistent, persistent, numerical identifier (often between 8 and 12
digits, but not restricted to 12)".

I know that you've been looking at UPRNs, so please add to the wiki page or
discussions.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:00 PM Mark Goodge  wrote:

>
>
> On 17/11/2020 11:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> > Following the fine efforts of a number of people to get ref:GB:uprn
> > through the tag proposal process I have created
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:GB:uprn
> > 
> >
> > Please add information to it, or discussions.
>
> One minor point on that. UPRNs aren't necessarily 12 digits. They're an
> unsigned integer of (currently) up to 12 digits. UPRNs of 999
> and below aren't zero-padded. They do, in fact, go all the way down to
> UPRN 1.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Mark Goodge]

On 17/11/2020 11:34, Jez Nicholson wrote:
Following the fine efforts of a number of people to get ref:GB:uprn 
through the tag proposal process I have created 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:GB:uprn 



Please add information to it, or discussions.


One minor point on that. UPRNs aren't necessarily 12 digits. They're an 
unsigned integer of (currently) up to 12 digits. UPRNs of 999 
and below aren't zero-padded. They do, in fact, go all the way down to 
UPRN 1.


Mark

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[Talk-GB] UPRN wiki page

[Jez Nicholson]

Following the fine efforts of a number of people to get ref:GB:uprn through
the tag proposal process I have created
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:GB:uprn

Please add information to it, or discussions.

USRN to follow

- Jez
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