[Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB - 2014
Happy 10th Birthday OSM! For a 10th birthday present - I thought I'd reprise SK53's 10 fascinating facts posting from April 2013[1], to see where OSM GB is at, at of the beginning of August 2014 compared to Ordnance Survey GB(OSGB)[2] (values not updated). So here's the comparison with the changes in OSM in that period. Object: OSGB ; OSM ; OSM Change since April 2013 1. Pylons: 80,517 ; 69,562 ; +11,075 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=tower#values) 2. Post Boxes: 93,728 ; 47,501 ; +4,759 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=post_box#values Also see http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postboxes/) 3. Camp sites: 8,908 ; 3,826 ; +644 ( 1493+3+1+1camp_sitehttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=camp_site#values) + 2331+4+3 (caravan_sitehttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=caravan#values) 4. Buildings: 35,397,754 ; 2,731,351 ; 1,890,835 ; +840,516 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=building) 5. Bus Stops: 354,099 ; 220,490 ; +4,770 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=bus_stop#values) 6. Residence within 500m of a football ground: 2,115,006 ; Not analysed ; Not analysed [3] 7. Petrol Stations: 7,702; 6,339 ; +1,142 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fuel#values) 8. Addresses: 27,341,262; 764,082 ; +231,196 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/addr:housenumber) 9. Electricity Poles: 183,987; 134,998 ; +40,799 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pole#values) 10. Road length: 407,532 km ; 413,296 km ; Different analysis[4] Of course there is no guarantee we are comparing like for like. All values from UK taginfo (except for road length[4], which is sum of the lengths of the following highway types: living_street 250.9 km motorway 6985.1 km motorway_link 1474.7 km primary 28690.1 km primary_link 257.4 km residential 131145.1 km secondary 30977.3 km secondary_link 47.8 km tertiary 56068.5 km tertiary_link 86.9 km trunk 27320.7 km trunk_link 1716.6 km unclassified 128275.3 km =431,296 km Quirky OSM values: 1. 6 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/royal_cypher=EVIIIR post boxes with Edward VIII's royal cypher. NB There's 327 Queen Victoria 'VR' Postboxes 2. only 278 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/memorial=war_memorialWar Memorials - many may be mapped simply under the generic historic=memorial but with the specific memorial type. 3. 1907 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=police#valuesPolice and 1596 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fire#values Fire Stations 4. 955 Fire Hydrants (see above) 5. 180 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=real_aleestablishments purveying Real Ale, and 188 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=cider Real Cider out of 34,086 Pubs http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pub#values and 2,243 Bars http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=bar#values( ONLY 1 with osm:london=approvalhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/osm%3Alondon#overview) 6. 7,094 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/bicycle_parkingBicycle Parking locations With a capacity of 87611 [5] 7. around 30 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=hide#values bird/wildlife hides 8. 6 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=knitting#valuesknitting shops 9. 9069 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/stile#overview stiles 10. 2025 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=lock canal locks [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-April/014681.html [2] https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2013/04/10-fascinating-facts-from-ordnance-survey/ [3] Some SQL query code may be needed to perform this one - for OSGB given the high number of homes, presumably they are considering any football pitch (not just league football grounds). I still haven't gotten around to doing any DB things... [4] https://gist.github.com/rnorris/6efe00b00e70821c5b23 - Run with 'great-britain-latest.osm.pbf' [5] https://gist.github.com/rnorris/1e8ecf7850cc6c672616 OSM User: robbieonsea Be Seeing You - Rob If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB - 2014
Thanks for doing this: I'd made a start with the roads, but wasnt fit for anything except a couple of beers after the OpenAddresses Symposium. Do we have any artiists/designers who could turn this into an infographic? Jerry On 9 August 2014 09:54, Robert Norris rw_nor...@hotmail.com wrote: Happy 10th Birthday OSM! For a 10th birthday present - I thought I'd reprise SK53's 10 fascinating facts posting from April 2013[1], to see where OSM GB is at, at of the beginning of August 2014 compared to Ordnance Survey GB(OSGB)[2] (values not updated). So here's the comparison with the changes in OSM in that period. Object: OSGB ; OSM ; OSM Change since April 2013 1. Pylons: 80,517 ; 69,562 ; +11,075 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=tower#values) 2. Post Boxes: 93,728 ; 47,501 ; +4,759 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=post_box#values Also see http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postboxes/) 3. Camp sites: 8,908 ; 3,826 ; +644 ( 1493+3+1+1camp_site http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=camp_site#values) + 2331+4+3 (caravan_site http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=caravan#values) 4. Buildings: 35,397,754 ; 2,731,351 ; 1,890,835 ; +840,516 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=building) 5. Bus Stops: 354,099 ; 220,490 ; +4,770 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=bus_stop#values) 6. Residence within 500m of a football ground: 2,115,006 ; Not analysed ; Not analysed [3] 7. Petrol Stations: 7,702; 6,339 ; +1,142 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fuel#values) 8. Addresses: 27,341,262; 764,082 ; +231,196 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/addr:housenumber) 9. Electricity Poles: 183,987; 134,998 ; +40,799 (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pole#values) 10. Road length: 407,532 km ; 413,296 km ; Different analysis[4] Of course there is no guarantee we are comparing like for like. All values from UK taginfo (except for road length[4], which is sum of the lengths of the following highway types: living_street 250.9 km motorway 6985.1 km motorway_link 1474.7 km primary 28690.1 km primary_link 257.4 km residential 131145.1 km secondary30977.3 km secondary_link 47.8 km tertiary 56068.5 km tertiary_link 86.9 km trunk27320.7 km trunk_link1716.6 km unclassified128275.3 km =431,296 km Quirky OSM values: 1. 6 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/royal_cypher=EVIIIR post boxes with Edward VIII's royal cypher. NB There's 327 Queen Victoria 'VR' Postboxes 2. only 278 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/memorial=war_memorialWar Memorials - many may be mapped simply under the generic historic=memorial but with the specific memorial type. 3. 1907 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=police#values Police and 1596 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fire#values Fire Stations 4. 955 Fire Hydrants (see above) 5. 180 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=real_aleestablishments purveying Real Ale, and 188 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=cider Real Cider out of 34,086 Pubs http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pub#values and 2,243 Bars http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=bar#values( ONLY 1 with osm:london=approval http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/osm%3Alondon#overview) 6. 7,094 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/bicycle_parkingBicycle Parking locations With a capacity of 87611 [5] 7. around 30 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=hide#values bird/wildlife hides 8. 6 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=knitting#valuesknitting shops 9. 9069 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/stile#overview stiles 10. 2025 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=lock canal locks [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-April/014681.html [2] https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2013/04/10-fascinating-facts-from-ordnance-survey/ [3] Some SQL query code may be needed to perform this one - for OSGB given the high number of homes, presumably they are considering any football pitch (not just league football grounds). I still haven't gotten around to doing any DB things... [4] https://gist.github.com/rnorris/6efe00b00e70821c5b23 - Run with 'great-britain-latest.osm.pbf' [5] https://gist.github.com/rnorris/1e8ecf7850cc6c672616 OSM User: robbieonsea Be Seeing You - Rob If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
[Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
OSGB has just tweeted it's 10 fascinating facts. I thought it would be fun to compare with OSM 1. Pylons: 80,517 ; 58,487 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=tower#values ) 2. Post Boxes: 93.728 (OSGB); 42,742 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=post_box#values ) 3. Camp sites: 8,908 (OSGB); 1 274 (camp_sitehttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=camp_site#values) + 1 918 (caravan_sitehttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=caravan#values) = 3,192 (OSM) 4. Buildings: 35,397,754 (OSGB); 1,890,835 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=building ) 5. Bus Stops: 354,099 (OSGB); 215,720 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fuel#values ) 6. 2,115,006 (OSGB); 7. Petrol Stations: 7,702 (OSGB); 5,197 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fuel#values ) 8. Addresses: 27,341,262 (OSGB); 532,886 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/addr:housenumber ) 9. Electricity Poles: 183, 987 (OSGB); 94,199 (OSMhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pole#values ) 10. Road length: 407,532 km (OSGB); 522,627 (OSM) Of course there is no guarantee we are comparing like for like (although its only power=pole which looks suspiciously high, I suspect we map low power lines not included by OSGB). All values from UK taginfo (except for road length, which I queried from a snapshot schema), no data merging or need to query multiple sources, and certainly no need for an IBM Netezza appliance. I thought I'd add a few more quirky OSM values: 1. 5 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/royal_cypher=EVIIIR post boxes with Edward VIII's royal cypher 2. only 110http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/memorial=war_memorialWar Memorials 3. 1830 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=police#valuesPolice and 1518 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=fire#values Fire Stations 4. 847 Fire Hydrants (see above) 5. 1378 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=real_aleestablishments purveying Real Ale, and 156 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=cider Real Cider out of 32,624 Pubs http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=pub#valuesand 1717 Bars http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=bar#values(including 1 with ale_supply_limited, and ONLY 1 with osm:london=approvalhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/osm%3Alondon#overview ) 6. 4771 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/bicycle_parkingBicycle Parking locations 7. around 300http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=hide#valuesbird/wildlife hides 8. 2 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=knitting#valuesknitting shops (shows gender of mappers I suspect) 9. 5552 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/stile#values stiles 10. 1774 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=lock canal locks Jerry ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
Not all of NaPTAN was imported. It was only done in some regions. It still needs the maintenance, i.e. updating from the updates from NaPTAN too, however no tools have been built to make this happen yet. Shaun On 18 Apr 2013, at 11:41, Barnett, Phillip phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk wrote: I thought that we’d imported the NAPTAN dataset, which should mean we have ALL the bus stops in the UK? So why do OSGB have more? PHILLIP BARNETT SERVER MANAGER 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD LONDON WC1X 8XZ UNITED KINGDOM T +44 207 430 4474 E phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk WWW.ITN.CO.UK P Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email? From: sk53.osm [mailto:sk53@gmail.com] Sent: 18 April 2013 10:28 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB OSGB has just tweeted it's 10 fascinating facts. I thought it would be fun to compare with OSM Pylons: 80,517 ; 58,487 (OSM) Post Boxes: 93.728 (OSGB); 42,742 (OSM) Camp sites: 8,908 (OSGB); 1 274 (camp_site) + 1 918 (caravan_site) = 3,192 (OSM) Buildings: 35,397,754 (OSGB); 1,890,835 (OSM) Bus Stops: 354,099 (OSGB); 215,720 (OSM) 2,115,006 (OSGB); Petrol Stations: 7,702 (OSGB); 5,197 (OSM) Addresses: 27,341,262 (OSGB); 532,886 (OSM) Electricity Poles: 183, 987 (OSGB); 94,199 (OSM) Road length: 407,532 km (OSGB); 522,627 (OSM) Of course there is no guarantee we are comparing like for like (although its only power=pole which looks suspiciously high, I suspect we map low power lines not included by OSGB). All values from UK taginfo (except for road length, which I queried from a snapshot schema), no data merging or need to query multiple sources, and certainly no need for an IBM Netezza appliance. I thought I'd add a few more quirky OSM values: 5 post boxes with Edward VIII's royal cypher only 110 War Memorials 1830 Police and 1518 Fire Stations 847 Fire Hydrants (see above) 1378 establishments purveying Real Ale, and 156 Real Cider out of 32,624 Pubs and 1717 Bars (including 1 with ale_supply_limited, and ONLY 1 with osm:london=approval) 4771 Bicycle Parking locations around 300http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=hide#values bird/wildlife hides 2 knitting shops (shows gender of mappers I suspect) 5552 stiles 1774 canal locks Jerry Please Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@itn.co.uk Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/2013 10:27, sk53.osm wrote: OSGB has just tweeted it's 10 fascinating facts. I thought it would be fun to compare with OSM 1. Post Boxes: 93.728 (OSGB); 42,742 (OSM http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=post_box#values) Excuse ignorance, but what's OSGB? Ordnance Survey? Could you post the twitter account? Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/2013 11:59, SomeoneElse wrote: Shaun McDonald wrote: Not all of NaPTAN was imported. It was only done in some regions. It still needs the maintenance, i.e. updating from the updates from NaPTAN too, however no tools have been built to make this happen yet. In the other direction there's also a slight double-counting effect where data was imported in some regions but bus stops (without the NaPTAN detail) was already present. Cheers, Andy And a couple of occasions where I accidentally deleted them Potlatch couldn't retrieve. As the imports that have occurred appeared to go fairly seamlessly, is there any objection why it can't be rolled out nationally? Would updating code be hard to write? Half of it must have been written for the initial import. Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18 Apr 2013, at 12:33, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 18/04/2013 11:59, SomeoneElse wrote: Shaun McDonald wrote: Not all of NaPTAN was imported. It was only done in some regions. It still needs the maintenance, i.e. updating from the updates from NaPTAN too, however no tools have been built to make this happen yet. In the other direction there's also a slight double-counting effect where data was imported in some regions but bus stops (without the NaPTAN detail) was already present. Cheers, Andy And a couple of occasions where I accidentally deleted them Potlatch couldn't retrieve. As the imports that have occurred appeared to go fairly seamlessly, is there any objection why it can't be rolled out nationally? Would updating code be hard to write? Half of it must have been written for the initial import. Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences, however the newish snapshot server tool by Andy Allan is a possible manual solution to that. Shaun ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/2013 12:52, Shaun McDonald wrote: Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences When you say differences, do you mean within the tags? Does it need to do that, could it not do a simpler find replace? Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/13 13:16, Gregory wrote: Which one is approved by OSM London? Bizarrely it's the Blue Posts: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/97209483 Seems that Derick decided to approve it for us ;-) Mind he also added food=yes which is a bit hopeful given the somewhat random nature of whether food is available or not... Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:01, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 18/04/2013 12:52, Shaun McDonald wrote: Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences When you say differences, do you mean within the tags? Does it need to do that, could it not do a simpler find replace? If someone has modified the item in OSM and in NaPTAN then it needs manual intervention as to which is more correct - the one in OSM or the one in NaPTAN. Shaun ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/13 14:14, Shaun McDonald wrote: On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:01, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 18/04/2013 12:52, Shaun McDonald wrote: Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences When you say differences, do you mean within the tags? Does it need to do that, could it not do a simpler find replace? If someone has modified the item in OSM and in NaPTAN then it needs manual intervention as to which is more correct - the one in OSM or the one in NaPTAN. Shaun There are various errors in NaPTAN data. The data was created by different means in different local authorities and to varying standards of quality. The position is not always very accurate, but sometimes the accompanying information can be poor too. Some data are very good, but until you survey it you just don't know. As someone who has manually validated every stop in in a city (~1300) and about a third (~900) of the stops in a large Unitary Authority I can vouch for the differences and the wide variation in quality. It became clear that in the city the quality varied from area to area. I suspect that some areas were surveyed or recorded or checked more diligently than others possibly because a more diligent or competent person did the work there. As with almost all imports or external data sources, they were created by people. These people were being paid to do a job come rain or shine, however they felt , whatever their own personal circumstances, all of which affects the quality of their work. OSM surveys are done because the surveyor wants to do it and so I think we should accept that sometimes OSM surveys are better than imports. In the case of NaPTAN that certainly can be true. That's not to say the external data is useless - finding every bus stop in a city without a list to work from would have been hard and easy to miss one. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 18/04/13 14:14, Shaun McDonald wrote: On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:01, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 18/04/2013 12:52, Shaun McDonald wrote: Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences When you say differences, do you mean within the tags? Does it need to do that, could it not do a simpler find replace? If someone has modified the item in OSM and in NaPTAN then it needs manual intervention as to which is more correct - the one in OSM or the one in NaPTAN. Shaun There are various errors in NaPTAN data. The data was created by different means in different local authorities and to varying standards of quality. The position is not always very accurate, but sometimes the accompanying information can be poor too. Some data are very good, but until you survey it you just don't know. As someone who has manually validated every stop in in a city (~1300) and about a third (~900) of the stops in a large Unitary Authority I can vouch for the differences and the wide variation in quality. It became clear that in the city the quality varied from area to area. I suspect that some areas were surveyed or recorded or checked more diligently than others possibly because a more diligent or competent person did the work there. Can I ask what type of changes you made to the NaPTAN data when manually validating the stops? I've been meaning to look at exactly this - updating the NaPTAN imported data - for a little while now as it's needed before the TNDS data (which has route / timetable info) can be usefully used. My rough plan was to assume that all tags under the naptan: namespace were fair game for updating to match the current NaPTAN import. Whether that's practical will depend on if there have been widespread manual changes to the naptan: data or not. Oliver ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/13 16:40, Oliver Jowett wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net mailto:o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 18/04/13 14:14, Shaun McDonald wrote: On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:01, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 18/04/2013 12:52, Shaun McDonald wrote: Updates are a lot harder to do as you have to deal with differences When you say differences, do you mean within the tags? Does it need to do that, could it not do a simpler find replace? If someone has modified the item in OSM and in NaPTAN then it needs manual intervention as to which is more correct - the one in OSM or the one in NaPTAN. Shaun There are various errors in NaPTAN data. The data was created by different means in different local authorities and to varying standards of quality. The position is not always very accurate, but sometimes the accompanying information can be poor too. Some data are very good, but until you survey it you just don't know. As someone who has manually validated every stop in in a city (~1300) and about a third (~900) of the stops in a large Unitary Authority I can vouch for the differences and the wide variation in quality. It became clear that in the city the quality varied from area to area. I suspect that some areas were surveyed or recorded or checked more diligently than others possibly because a more diligent or competent person did the work there. Can I ask what type of changes you made to the NaPTAN data when manually validating the stops? I've been meaning to look at exactly this - updating the NaPTAN imported data - for a little while now as it's needed before the TNDS data (which has route / timetable info) can be usefully used. My rough plan was to assume that all tags under the naptan: namespace were fair game for updating to match the current NaPTAN import. Whether that's practical will depend on if there have been widespread manual changes to the naptan: data or not. I followed the guidelines in the wiki [1] and use the NOVAM viewer [2] to see what remained to be reviewed. Positioning is the biggest dilemma, how to be sure the position should be moved? Multiple GPS traces to average out the road position helps a lot, but a single GPS position is subject to the same error as some of the original surveys. Any naptan:* tag is fair game to change if it does not agree with your survey. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Surveying_and_Merging_NaPTAN_and_OSM_data [2] http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/?zoom=15lat=53.7299lon=-0.43507layers=BTscheme=hull -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: I followed the guidelines in the wiki [1] That seems to boil down to don't modify naptan: tags except naptan:verified, so hopefully we won't have to worry about conflicts between import updates and manual changes there. Not sure what to with naptan:verified=yes when updating a stop, setting it to no and leaving it unchanged both seem unsatisfactory. and use the NOVAM viewer [2] That's a nice viewer! Oliver ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On 18/04/13 18:12, Oliver Jowett wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net mailto:o...@raggedred.net wrote: I followed the guidelines in the wiki [1] That seems to boil down to don't modify naptan: tags except naptan:verified, so hopefully we won't have to worry about conflicts between import updates and manual changes there. There are many naptan:* tags that are not mentioned on the page. If you find any that are not consistent with what you find on the ground, change them. Examples are bearing, street, Atcocode, landmark, all of which I found often to be wrong. Various authorities include different levels of detail, so there may be more tags than this. All are open to change if you find an error. Not sure what to with naptan:verified=yes when updating a stop, setting it to no and leaving it unchanged both seem unsatisfactory. If a stop has been verified, delete the naptan:verified=*. I should add that I sent all of the anomalies I found to my local councils. having said they were interested, both ignored my data, so OSM in my area is still more accurate that the NaPTAN data. Local authorities provide the data that ends up in NaPTAN. I would not, therefore, support updating OSM with another NaPTAN import in my local area. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 18/04/13 18:12, Oliver Jowett wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net mailto: o...@raggedred.net wrote: I followed the guidelines in the wiki [1] That seems to boil down to don't modify naptan: tags except naptan:verified, so hopefully we won't have to worry about conflicts between import updates and manual changes there. There are many naptan:* tags that are not mentioned on the page. If you find any that are not consistent with what you find on the ground, change them. Examples are bearing, street, Atcocode, landmark, all of which I found often to be wrong. Various authorities include different levels of detail, so there may be more tags than this. All are open to change if you find an error. I'm a bit confused now. The wiki page says Tags that start with Naptan should not be edited until a system had been agreed on (except naptan:verified=*, see below). Have you been updating the naptan tags in-place as you find errors, or correcting the data elsewhere (e.g. by modifying name= as the wiki page suggests)? On the NOVAM example you linked, I see stops where there is a note saying that the NaPTAN Bearing is wrong and should be some other value, but the original value is still there in naptan:Bearing. (On another note, shouldn't source=naptan + survey be source=naptan_import; survey?) Not sure what to with naptan:verified=yes when updating a stop, setting it to no and leaving it unchanged both seem unsatisfactory. If a stop has been verified, delete the naptan:verified=*. Oh, right, I misread how that was used. However my point is that when merging updated data from NaPTAN to a stop that has been verified on the ground, we want some way to say this has been verified manually at some point in the past, but there have been subsequent imported changes that may need re-verification - how should we represent that? (naptan:verified=previous_import? naptan:unverified=CommonName;Bearing?) I should add that I sent all of the anomalies I found to my local councils. having said they were interested, both ignored my data, so OSM in my area is still more accurate that the NaPTAN data. Local authorities provide the data that ends up in NaPTAN. I would not, therefore, support updating OSM with another NaPTAN import in my local area. I'm working around Cambridge where there's been essentially no verification done, and there have been various route and stop changes since the import so the current TNDS data now references many stops that do not exist in OSM, and there are lots of dead stops. An update is definitely needed here! Since the original imports were done piecemeal I expect the same would happen with any updates, so at worst we can just not update areas with good coverage that we don't want to touch. Ideally, though, we'd take the best of both datasets. Certainly we would not want to clobber manual corrections with the old, wrong, import data, but if we get new NaPTAN data then it's probably worth at least flagging the changes for further inspection? Oliver ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
I would not, therefore, support updating OSM with another NaPTAN import in my local area. Agreed that a blanket import would be a poor option, but surely a tool that would show comparisons between the new NaPTAN data and OSM data would be useful? Or perhaps a comparison between the old and new NaPTAN data would be better? It could highlight where bus stops have been removed, new ones added, and so on. This would provide most of the info needed to reduce the task of re-surveying. Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.comwrote: Or perhaps a comparison between the old and new NaPTAN data would be better? Do we have the old data around? (I'm not clear whether all the original imports were from one dataset, or several over time) Oliver ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 10 fascinating facts about OSM OSGB
Maybe we should be advising that for all imports the original files are kept somewhere safe. Rob On 18 April 2013 19:57, Oliver Jowett oliver.jow...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.comwrote: Or perhaps a comparison between the old and new NaPTAN data would be better? Do we have the old data around? (I'm not clear whether all the original imports were from one dataset, or several over time) Oliver ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
