Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Christopher Jones]

A default to English is perhaps a little tone deaf. 

As Andy wisely suggests, seeking a consensus among (ideally local) mappers is 
the way forward here. 

—
Chris

> On 31 Oct 2020, at 18:19, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> I like it.
> 
> + "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."? 
> .although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.
> 
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor,  wrote:
> Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions. 
> 
> I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to 
> propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging page 
> on the OSM Wiki. 
> 
> This would be a slight change from the current entry
> 
> BEGINS/---
> 
> In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named differently 
> in Welsh and English. 
> 
> Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English
> 
> The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population. 
> 
> This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh but 
> not both.
> 
> If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can be 
> added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code 
> for the Welsh language).
> 
> If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh, 
> name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter 
> ISO639-1 language code for the English language).
> 
> Examples:
> 
> name: Welshpool
> name:cy Y Trallwng
> 
> name: Biwmares
> name:en Beaumaris
> 
> It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not 
> harmful to do so.
> 
> Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English
> 
> The name: tag should contain the name.
> 
> It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en 
> (since there is only one name in both languages). 
> 
> However
> 
> Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag even 
> though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help other 
> mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not yet 
> been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.
> 
> Example:
> name: Caernarfon 
> name:cy Caernarfon
> 
> ---/ENDS
> 
> 
> I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more 
> comments on this.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones  wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Personally, I don’t see the point of 
> 
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
> 
> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a place 
> in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a little 
> close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs little 
> to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to do!
> 
> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
> 
> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature 
> favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary 
> English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent on 
> welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change in any 
> of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target is for 
> 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the population.
> 
> • always use the name that is used in Welsh 
> 
> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh, this 
> might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no sense. 
> (Figures from the 2011 census) 
> 
> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen 
> (which is the practice in some other countries)
> 
> I’m going to refer you to 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html 
> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and there 
> are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders)) 
> 
> • use the name on local signage
> 
> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage 
> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names (where 
> they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do so for 
> quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh Language 
> Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh language is 
> treated no less favourably than the English language” this ensures that on 
> any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first regardless of local usage.
> 
> So we end up with the status quo….
> 
> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what 
> the wiki currently suggests)
> 
> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on 
> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
> 
> To me, this 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Christopher Jones]

This looks good to me!

Thanks!

—
Chris

> On 31 Oct 2020, at 11:03, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions. 
> 
> I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to 
> propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging page 
> on the OSM Wiki. 
> 
> This would be a slight change from the current entry
> 
> BEGINS/---
> 
> In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named differently 
> in Welsh and English. 
> 
> Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English
> 
> The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population. 
> 
> This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh but 
> not both.
> 
> If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can be 
> added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code 
> for the Welsh language).
> 
> If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh, 
> name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter 
> ISO639-1 language code for the English language).
> 
> Examples:
> 
> name: Welshpool
> name:cy Y Trallwng
> 
> name: Biwmares
> name:en Beaumaris
> 
> It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not 
> harmful to do so.
> 
> Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English
> 
> The name: tag should contain the name.
> 
> It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en 
> (since there is only one name in both languages). 
> 
> However
> 
> Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag even 
> though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help other 
> mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not yet 
> been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.
> 
> Example:
> name: Caernarfon 
> name:cy Caernarfon
> 
> ---/ENDS
> 
> 
> I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more 
> comments on this.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones  wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Personally, I don’t see the point of 
> 
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
> 
> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a place 
> in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a little 
> close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs little 
> to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to do!
> 
> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
> 
> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature 
> favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary 
> English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent on 
> welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change in any 
> of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target is for 
> 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the population.
> 
> • always use the name that is used in Welsh 
> 
> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh, this 
> might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no sense. 
> (Figures from the 2011 census) 
> 
> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen 
> (which is the practice in some other countries)
> 
> I’m going to refer you to 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html 
> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and there 
> are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders)) 
> 
> • use the name on local signage
> 
> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage 
> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names (where 
> they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do so for 
> quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh Language 
> Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh language is 
> treated no less favourably than the English language” this ensures that on 
> any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first regardless of local usage.
> 
> So we end up with the status quo….
> 
> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what 
> the wiki currently suggests)
> 
> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on 
> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
> 
> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
> 
> Thanks for reading! 
> 
> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
> 
> —
> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM render 
> many moons ago.
> 
> 
> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Jez Nicholson]

I'm open to alternatives for dispute regulation. I fear that Wales *is* a
location where feelings run high.

See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms including the
Welsh-English argument in the Talk.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 19:52 Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 31/10/2020 18:19, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> I like it.
>
> + "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."?
> .although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.
>
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor,  wrote:
>
> (snipped)
>
> "In the event of a dispute please discuss among a larger group and try and
> find consensus" might be better than being seen to "hard-code" a preference
> for one language or another.
>
> With a Data Working Group hat on I've seen language disputes in various
> places, and it's often made worse by someone "overinterpreting" something
> in a wiki page or elsewhere that was perfectly well-meaning but not
> designed to cover the current situation at all.   If you wanted to refer to
> the DWG directly "in the event of a dispute" that wouldn't be a problem,
> since I'd expect that the first thing that we'd try and do is to get those
> involved to talk things through in a wider forum, possibly this list or
> something more local if appropriate.
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 31/10/2020 18:19, Jez Nicholson wrote:

I like it.

+ "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."? 
.although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.


On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor, > wrote:


(snipped)

"In the event of a dispute please discuss among a larger group and try 
and find consensus" might be better than being seen to "hard-code" a 
preference for one language or another.


With a Data Working Group hat on I've seen language disputes in various 
places, and it's often made worse by someone "overinterpreting" 
something in a wiki page or elsewhere that was perfectly well-meaning 
but not designed to cover the current situation at all.   If you wanted 
to refer to the DWG directly "in the event of a dispute" that wouldn't 
be a problem, since I'd expect that the first thing that we'd try and do 
is to get those involved to talk things through in a wider forum, 
possibly this list or something more local if appropriate.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Jez Nicholson]

I like it.

+ "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."?
.although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor,  wrote:

> Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions.
>
> I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to
> propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging
> page on the OSM Wiki.
>
> This would be a slight change from the current entry
>
> BEGINS/---
>
> In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named
> differently in Welsh and English.
>
> *Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English*
>
> The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population.
>
> This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh
> but not both.
>
> If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can
> be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language
> code for the Welsh language).
>
> If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh,
> name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter
> ISO639-1 language code for the English language).
>
> Examples:
>
> name: Welshpool
> name:cy Y Trallwng
>
> name: Biwmares
> name:en Beaumaris
>
> It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is
> not harmful to do so.
>
> *Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English*
>
> The name: tag should contain the name.
>
> It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en
> (since there is only one name in both languages).
>
> However
>
> Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag
> even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help
> other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not
> yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.
>
> Example:
> name: Caernarfon
> name:cy Caernarfon
>
> ---/ENDS
>
>
> I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more
> comments on this.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> Personally, I don’t see the point of
>>
>> name: Swansea
>> name:en Swansea
>> name:cy Abertawe
>>
>> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a
>> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a
>> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs
>> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to
>> do!
>>
>> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
>>
>> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its
>> nature favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are
>> primary English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being
>> spent on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to
>> change in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious
>> target is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of
>> the population.
>>
>> • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>>
>> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh,
>> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no
>> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census)
>>
>> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
>> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>>
>> I’m going to refer you to
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html
>> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and
>> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders))
>>
>> • use the name on local signage
>>
>> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage
>> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names
>> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do
>> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh
>> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh
>> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this
>> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first
>> regardless of local usage.
>>
>> So we end up with the status quo….
>>
>> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
>> what the wiki currently suggests)
>>
>> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on
>> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
>>
>> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
>>
>> Thanks for reading!
>>
>> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
>>
>> —
>> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM
>> render many moons ago.
>>
>>
>> > On 21 Oct 2020, 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Mark Goodge]

On 31/10/2020 11:03, Ben Proctor wrote:



Example:
name: Caernarfon
name:cy Caernarfon


That's not a particularly good example, as Caernarfon is the Welsh name. 
The English name is Caernarvon. But in this case, nobody, not even the 
English, uses the English name any more. The English version though, is 
found in a lot of historical documentation. So including it somewhere is 
probably appropriate.


I'm not sure, though, that name:en would be the right tag, as that 
implies that it's a name in current use. Do we have a way of tagging 
historic or archaic names? If so, then I'd use that for Caernarvon.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions.

I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to
propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging
page on the OSM Wiki.

This would be a slight change from the current entry

BEGINS/---

In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named
differently in Welsh and English.

*Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English*

The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population.

This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh
but not both.

If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can
be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language
code for the Welsh language).

If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh,
name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter
ISO639-1 language code for the English language).

Examples:

name: Welshpool
name:cy Y Trallwng

name: Biwmares
name:en Beaumaris

It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not
harmful to do so.

*Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English*

The name: tag should contain the name.

It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en
(since there is only one name in both languages).

However

Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag
even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help
other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not
yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.

Example:
name: Caernarfon
name:cy Caernarfon

---/ENDS


I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more
comments on this.


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones 
wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Personally, I don’t see the point of
>
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
>
> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a
> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a
> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs
> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to
> do!
>
> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
>
> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature
> favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary
> English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent
> on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change
> in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target
> is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the
> population.
>
> • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>
> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh,
> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no
> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census)
>
> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>
> I’m going to refer you to
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html
> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and
> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders))
>
> • use the name on local signage
>
> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage
> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names
> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do
> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh
> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh
> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this
> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first
> regardless of local usage.
>
> So we end up with the status quo….
>
> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
> what the wiki currently suggests)
>
> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on
> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
>
> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
>
> Thanks for reading!
>
> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
>
> —
> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM
> render many moons ago.
>
>
> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
> >
> > I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so
> far:
> > The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
> flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very
> controversial part 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Christopher Jones via Talk-GB]

Hi Ben,

Personally, I don’t see the point of 

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a place 
in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a little 
close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs little to 
duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to do!

Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…

You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature 
favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary 
English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent on 
welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change in any 
of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target is for 1M 
welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the population.

• always use the name that is used in Welsh 

In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh, this 
might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no sense. 
(Figures from the 2011 census) 

• use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen 
(which is the practice in some other countries)

I’m going to refer you to 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html where 
I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and there are much 
better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders)) 

• use the name on local signage

I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage because 
the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names (where they both 
exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do so for quite some 
time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh Language Measure of 2011 
councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh language is treated no less 
favourably than the English language” this ensures that on any sign made in the 
last 10 years Welsh is first regardless of local usage.

So we end up with the status quo….

• use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what 
the wiki currently suggests)

This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on local 
mappers being able to reach a consensus.

To me, this remains the pragmatic option!

Thanks for reading! 

And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!

—
Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM render 
many moons ago.


> On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
> 
> I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far:
> The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more 
> flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very 
> controversial part of the discussion. 
> 
> I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too much 
> concern.
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several 
> suggestions have been floated:
>   • always use the name that is used in Welsh 
>   • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what 
> the wiki currently suggests)
>   • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen 
> (which is the practice in some other countries)
>   • use the name on local signage
> We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is the 
> sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name on 
> local signage or the name used by the "local population". 
> 
> From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is 
> likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best 
> advised to refer to local signage.
> 
> Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name. 
> 
> So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag 
> should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual naming 
> in the name: tag.  
> 
> 
> What does everyone think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend  wrote:
> Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
> 
> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>> 
>> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for 
>> this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name 
>> tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has 
>> precedence over another.
> Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence over 
> another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for everyone to 
> use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using only :cy names 
> (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly 
> that already).  Other maps can choose 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2020-10-21 at 12:10 +0100, Ben Proctor wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
> 
> I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion
> so far:
> The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
> flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a
> very controversial part of the discussion. 
> 
> I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing
> too much concern.
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there
> several suggestions have been floated:
> always use the name that is used in Welsh use the name that is used
> by the "local population" (which is what the wiki currently
> suggests)use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)

In Wales this has been done with a slash rather than a hyphen. A hyphen
can appear in the name in both languages, a slash is uniquely a
separator.

The other way the name tag is used in Wales, as is used on many signs
is to exploit the ordering differences of the two languages, i.e.
Ffordd Fabian Way 

> use the name on local signage
> We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure
> that is the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to
> using the name on local signage or the name used by the "local
> population". 
> 
> From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population
> is likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably
> be best advised to refer to local signage.
> 
> Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name. 
> 
> So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name:
> tag should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more
> dual naming in the name: tag.  

Signage is at best at county level and does not reflect the local
language and just picking one local example, Welshpool is signed as Y
Trallwng /  Welshpool. Local usage is certainly Welshpool so it
would not make sense to change the name tag. Both languages are in the
objects which allows maps to be rendered in each language. We should
certainly be sticking to the current wiki.

Also the reallity is that outside of border areas and big cities many
places have one name, it would not make much sense to have
name=Llangollen, name:cy=Llangollen name:en=Llangollen, the name tag
will do.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.

I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far:
The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very
controversial part of the discussion.

I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too
much concern.



There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several
suggestions have been floated:

   - always use the name that is used in Welsh
   - use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what the
   wiki currently suggests)
   - use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen
   (which is the practice in some other countries)
   - use the name on local signage

We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is
the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name
on local signage or the name used by the "local population".

>From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is
likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best
advised to refer to local signage.

Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name.

So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag
should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual
naming in the name: tag.


What does everyone think?








On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
>
> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>
>
> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for
> this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name
> tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has
> precedence over another.
>
> Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence
> over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for
> everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using
> only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out,
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already).  Other maps can
> choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9=51.93=-4.182
> for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first,
> or use different colours for different languages, or, or...
>
> The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.
>
>
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we
> accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM
> is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we
> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where
> that's possible?
>
> OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - see
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf
> .  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group gets
> _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X
> is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at osm.org
> in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an area speak a different
> language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it is only
> fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag.  OSM should not be
> making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others
> via some sort of "historical authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply
> that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look
> at all the "old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has
> occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways -
> either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh
> versions of the original English and English speakers changing original
> (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.
>
> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external
> body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can
> refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a
> recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed
> under OGL 3.0:
>
>
> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx
>
> Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in
> Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from
> local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea
> Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar
> Anglesea".  See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which
> I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

Hi Gruff, hi Ben,

On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:


The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful 
for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a 
single name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one 
language has precedence over another.


Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence 
over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for 
everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map 
using only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, 
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already). Other maps can 
choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9=51.93=-4.182 
for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or 
English-first, or use different colours for different languages, or, or...


The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.



With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If 
we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and 
that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity 
to respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers 
didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic 
Welsh place names where that's possible?


OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - 
see 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf 
.  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group 
gets _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of 
country X is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be 
displayed at osm.org in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an 
area speak a different language to the majority of people in the rest of 
the country, it is only fair to reflect that local language in the 
"name" tag.  OSM should not be making decisions about which placenames 
are more "authentic" than others via some sort of "historical 
authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply that to Kaliningrad 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look at all the 
"old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has occasionally had 
mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - either changing 
names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh versions of the 
original English and English speakers changing original (and most common 
in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.


One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an 
external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place 
names that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language 
Commissioner provides a recommended list of standardised place names 
for Wales which is licensed under OGL 3.0:


http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx 



Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in 
Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from 
local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin 
"Anglesea Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's 
just "Bóthar Anglesea".  See also 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which I've heard referred to 
as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics both national and 
local associated with that).




All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM 
and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't 
go against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative 
with my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. 
Overall I think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject 
and trying to pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot 
of strong sentiment in this part of the world!


As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that 
Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It 
always strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in 
predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will 
use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's 
trying to show Welsh names).


Moving on to Ben's original mail:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor > wrote:



From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for
discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning
follows):

/[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but
not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but
not name: Wales/Cymru.
/

/Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is 
known in 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2020-10-16 at 14:28 +0100, David Woolley wrote:
> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
> > With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little.
> > If 
> > we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh
> > and 
> > that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an
> > opportunity to 
> > respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers
> > didn't. 
> > Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh
> > place 
> > names where that's possible? I understand that there will be
> > objections 
> > to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an
> > option?
> > 
> 
> My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local 
> communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area,
> reflect 
> the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage 
> says.  
I am Welsh, live in England in a town which shares a border with
Wrexham borough so am a frequent visitor to both North and Mid Wales.

My family lost Welsh as a language during the days of the Welsh Not so
totally support the language.

That used to be the case, at least at county level, there was the rule
of thumb Araf on top then Cymraig, Slow on to then English.

That has changed in recent years and in general as signs are changed
then Cymraig is on top. Local knowledge tells me that changing
Welshpool to Y Trallwng is probably not going to make OSM more useful
to our end users which has to be the primary focus of how we map
things. OSM is not a plaything/hobby project. 

Adding name:cy tags should be encouraged, I added quite a lot locally.
For my nearest Welsh Village I found the name Llys Bedydd on the sign
outside the church, its not on any roadsign and I doubt my local
doctors would recognise it even though they do cover Bettisfield.

https://openstreetmap.cymru/ still exists although the project seems to
have died, probably the grant ran out.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 15:32, Edward Bainton  wrote:
>
> I was going to suggest a cy-preferring tileserver, too. Possibly something
> the Welsh govt would be willing to fund? Could it even be hosted at
> cy.openstreetmap.org?

It already exists, at:

   https://openstreetmap.cymru/

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Edward Bainton]

I was going to suggest a cy-preferring tileserver, too. Possibly something
the Welsh govt would be willing to fund? Could it even be hosted at
cy.openstreetmap.org?

As a practical question, how does the on-the-ground criterion work in Welsh
cases where street signs are bilingual? I ask out of interest only: I'm not
local to Wales or nearby.

E.g., a quick image search shows some signs reading "Welcome to Wrexham /
Croeso i Wrecsam", and some with the languages the other way round.


On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, 14:31 David Woolley, 
wrote:

> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
> > With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If
> > we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and
> > that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to
> > respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't.
> > Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place
> > names where that's possible? I understand that there will be objections
> > to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?
> >
>
> My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local
> communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area, reflect
> the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage
> says.  This is even more important in areas where people are shelling
> each other over such issues.  Using what is on the ground is the only
> way that OSM can avoid taking sides.
>
> There is nothing to stop a Welsh language supporter running a map tile
> server that uses name:cy, in preference to name, where it exists.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[David Woolley]

On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If 
we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and 
that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to 
respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. 
Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place 
names where that's possible? I understand that there will be objections 
to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?




My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local 
communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area, reflect 
the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage 
says.  This is even more important in areas where people are shelling 
each other over such issues.  Using what is on the ground is the only 
way that OSM can avoid taking sides.


There is nothing to stop a Welsh language supporter running a map tile 
server that uses name:cy, in preference to name, where it exists.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Gruff Owen]

Hi Ben,

Have been lurking in the background of GB-Talk for a little while and just
learning the ropes with OSM at the moment. But I have done a bit of reading
around the GB-Talk archives on this subject because it's really hard to
know what to do with English / Welsh names in some cases.

I come from a background of land management in North Wales where place
names are becoming an increasingly hot topic. I'm sure you're already aware
of this but for those who are new to the subject this video has been doing
the rounds on social media for the past couple of years and broadly
outlines people's concerns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLQ6XlG0MQ4.

The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for
this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name
tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has
precedence over another. The crux of the topic for me is that maps are
never just standalone representations of the physical / political world,
they can also influence the world that they represent - they can project
influence or take it away. It's perhaps a bit of a naive viewpoint to think
that we're just recording what's there without recognising the power that
maps have to set in place and increase usage of some place names while
eliminating or significantly reducing the use of others.

With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we
accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM
is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we
take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where
that's possible? I understand that there will be objections to this, but
I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?

One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external
body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can
refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a
recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed
under OGL 3.0:

http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx

All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and not
a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go against the
group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my edits so
far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you
should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down a
policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in this
part of the world!

All the best,

Gruff



On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor  wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual
> tagging in Wales.
>
> In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh
> and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some
> (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language
> tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the
> medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.
>
> The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has
> been an area of discussion.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>
> The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *[starts/---]In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local
> population uses.name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh
> names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local
> population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh
> language.)The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across
> the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.*
> *[---/ends]*
>
> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *[starts/---]In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which
> the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
> both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
> Wales/Cymru.name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
> feature is known in English.name:cy should be used to give the name by
> which the place or feature is known in WelshEven though this will lead to
> apparent duplication. For example:name: Swanseaname:en Swanseaname:cy
> AbertaweThis allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
> rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
> *[---/ends]*
>
> *Our Reasoning*
> Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh
> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

ad b) yes, but we had edit wars about all
kinds of ridiculousness, and this is possible
already and happened in some places
12 paź 2020, 15:21 od jez.nichol...@gmail.com:

> Just being Devil's Advocatea) how do you decide on-the-ground what the 
> name by which the place is widely known in Wales is? i.e. is it on signage, 
> etc.? b) could it start an edit war if someone with strong views decided to 
> use one particular language for every 'name' attribute? c) are there 
> precedents for other countries in OSM?
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:06 PM Ben Proctor <> b...@benproctor.co.uk> > wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual 
>> tagging in Wales. 
>>
>> In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping >> 
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru/>>  and we've done some thinking about how Welsh 
>> and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some 
>> (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language 
>> tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the 
>> medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.
>>
>> The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been 
>> an area of discussion. >> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.
>>
>> [starts/---]
>> In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.
>>
>> name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such 
>> names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the 
>> two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)
>>
>> The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the 
>> country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.>> [---/ends]
>>
>> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, 
>> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>>
>> [starts/---]
>> In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is 
>> widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: 
>> Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.
>>
>> name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is 
>> known in English.
>> name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is 
>> known in Welsh
>>
>> Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:
>>
>> name: Swansea
>> name:en Swansea
>> name:cy Abertawe
>>
>> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than 
>> duplication is conveying useful new information.>> [---/ends]
>>
>> Our Reasoning
>> Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh 
>> and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It 
>> is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh 
>> or English. 
>>
>> We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in 
>> Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags. 
>>
>> The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its 
>> importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual 
>> countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the 
>> Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of 
>> designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a 
>> hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by 
>> processing name:en and name:cy tags.
>>
>> We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this 
>> proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or 
>> misconstrued.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>> --
>> Mapio Cymru 
>> OpenStreetMap.Cymru 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

In case of name where there is a language specific tag,
repeating name tag in language specific tag
is useful, welcome and a good idea.

I even run into a case where it was needed to render map as expected(Polish 
labels, with fallback to English ones)
-

I am unable to comment on Wales-specific
part.
-


"So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru"

It suggests that it is perfectly fine to
make edit changing country name.

Maybe some other example would be better?

For example some specific settlement for
each language?
12 paź 2020, 15:04 od b...@benproctor.co.uk:

> Hi everyone
>
> I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging 
> in Wales. 
>
> In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping > 
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/>  and we've done some thinking about how Welsh 
> and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) 
> workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the 
> map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh 
> but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.
>
> The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been 
> an area of discussion. > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>
> The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.
>
> [starts/---]
> In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.
>
> name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such 
> names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two 
> letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)
>
> The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country 
> and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.> [---/ends]
>
> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, 
> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>
> [starts/---]
> In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is 
> widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: 
> Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.
>
> name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is 
> known in English.
> name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is 
> known in Welsh
>
> Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:
>
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
>
> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than 
> duplication is conveying useful new information.> [---/ends]
>
> Our Reasoning
> Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh 
> and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is 
> not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or 
> English. 
>
> We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales 
> is to use the name:en and name:cy tags. 
>
> The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its 
> importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries 
> the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque 
> country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the 
> official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in 
> the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and 
> name:cy tags.
>
> We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this 
> proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ben
> --
> Mapio Cymru 
> OpenStreetMap.Cymru 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Jez Nicholson]

Just being Devil's Advocatea) how do you decide on-the-ground what the
name by which the place is widely known in Wales is? i.e. is it on signage,
etc.? b) could it start an edit war if someone with strong views decided to
use one particular language for every 'name' attribute? c) are there
precedents for other countries in OSM?

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:06 PM Ben Proctor  wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual
> tagging in Wales.
>
> In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh
> and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some
> (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language
> tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the
> medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.
>
> The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has
> been an area of discussion.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>
> The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *[starts/---]In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local
> population uses.name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh
> names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local
> population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh
> language.)The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across
> the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.*
> *[---/ends]*
>
> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *[starts/---]In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which
> the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
> both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
> Wales/Cymru.name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
> feature is known in English.name:cy should be used to give the name by
> which the place or feature is known in WelshEven though this will lead to
> apparent duplication. For example:name: Swanseaname:en Swanseaname:cy
> AbertaweThis allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
> rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
> *[---/ends]*
>
> *Our Reasoning*
> Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh
> and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It
> is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in
> Welsh or English.
>
> We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in
> Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.
>
> The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its
> importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual
> countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the
> Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of
> designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a
> hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by
> processing name:en and name:cy tags.
>
> We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this
> proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or
> misconstrued.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ben
> --
> Mapio Cymru 
> OpenStreetMap.Cymru
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual
tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh
and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some
(online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language
tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the
medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has
been an area of discussion.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.






*[starts/---]In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local
population uses.name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh
names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local
population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh
language.)The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across
the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.*
*[---/ends]*

>From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):













*[starts/---]In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
Wales/Cymru.name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
feature is known in English.name:cy should be used to give the name by
which the place or feature is known in WelshEven though this will lead to
apparent duplication. For example:name: Swanseaname:en Swanseaname:cy
AbertaweThis allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
*[---/ends]*

*Our Reasoning*
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh
and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It
is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in
Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in
Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its
importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual
countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the
Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of
designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a
hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by
processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this
proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or
misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
--
Mapio Cymru 
OpenStreetMap.Cymru
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