Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
On 16/6/20 7:43 am, Colin Smale wrote: On 2020-06-15 23:14, barry b wrote: Hi Folks, I made the below changes to rockall. snip I don't know the exact procedure here. I feel i didn't do it right. Don't worry too much about "not doing it right", just about everybody here has "been there done that got the t-shirt". +1. If we all waited until we were certain it was 'right' the map would be very vacant. Best effort etc but there come a time when you have to go with what you think is correct. Me? place=islet surface=rock If you tag just natural=rock then will it be above the sea or under it? Place=islet says it is above the sea and then the surface tag gives you the rock aspect. I'd level the admin borders up to the 'experts' ... tends to get messy on international things. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
On 2020-06-15 23:14, barry b wrote: > Hi Folks, I made the below changes to rockall. Thanks for engaging! > The changes i've made are > 1) Changed Rockall from Island to Rock > 2) Removed the Administration boundary > > 1) Rockall is not a island. You could debate its a rock or islet but it cant > sustain human life. > References: > 1) Wikipedia calls it a islet > 2 https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-24.365.0 [1] Irish > Government call it a rock > 3)https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html > - Uk Government call it a islet > 4) The hint is in its name š OSM knows about islets - tagged as place=islet (as opposed to place=island) > 2) The reason for removing the administration boundary is i wanted to remove > the EEZ around rockall.( The big circle) > From a visual point of view this looks off. it implies there is an island or > county there. But more importantly it is incorrect Changing the data "incorrectly" to achieve a desired appearance on a particular map is rather frowned upon in OSM; we call it "tagging for the renderer". So any arguments that it "looks off" tend to be declared null and void... The underlying data needs to be correct, and if it still "looks off", then it's the visualisation that needs fixing. It even has its own wiki page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer > Firstly even according the the UK. The EEZ wouldn't be 200nm, it would be 12 > - > https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html > [2] As I read it, it makes it clear that the territorial waters extend to 12nm, and the EEZ to 200nm from the baseline; for this latter purpose Rockall is ignored as it "cannot sustain life" etc (although it is covered by that 200nm EEZ) but Rockall itself and the 12nm territorial sea around Rockall are claimed as UK territory. > Secondly. No country accepts the EEZ and is considered international waters. > Several countries claim it Iceland, Denmark , UK and Ireland. > > In the coming months this rock in the middle of nowhere could potentially > turn into a larger issue with the UK exit from the EU as Iceland, Ireland and > other EU country all fish here > Last summer there was a standoff with the UK Navy and fishing boats. The > Irish Navy have also regularly patrol the area in protection of fishery > > I can give a list of references to show the EEZ recognized, but i don't think > that helpful > > I don't know the exact procedure here. I feel i didn't do it right. Don't worry too much about "not doing it right", just about everybody here has "been there done that got the t-shirt". It's exactly because this is/could be controversial that we need to tread carefully. We did this recently with Crimea for example. OSM needs to remain strictly neutral and tends to follow the international consensus and/or the actual, verifiable status "on the ground". Colin Links: -- [1] https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-24.365.0 [2] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
I'm still a bit confused about this, because the circle rendered around Rockall on OpenStreetMap is the 12nm limit of territorial waters, not the 200nm EEZ. We don't render the EEZ on OpenStreetMap, but as you point out, it is not in dispute that Rockall does not extend the UK's EEZ. So I'm a bit confused why we're talking about the EEZ at all here. If you want to see a map of EEZ claims, I believe this is the best one: https://www.marineregions.org/eezmapper.php Russ On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 22:14, barry b wrote: > > Hi Folks, I made the below changes to rockall. > > The changes i've made are > 1) Changed Rockall from Island to Rock > 2) Removed the Administration boundary > > 1) Rockall is not a island. You could debate its a rock or islet but it cant > sustain human life. > References: > 1) Wikipedia calls it a islet > 2 https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-24.365.0 Irish Government > call it a rock > 3)https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html > - Uk Government call it a islet > 4) The hint is in its name > > > 2) The reason for removing the administration boundary is i wanted to remove > the EEZ around rockall.( The big circle) > From a visual point of view this looks off. it implies there is an island or > county there. But more importantly it is incorrect > > Firstly even according the the UK. The EEZ wouldn't be 200nm, it would be 12 > - > https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html > > Secondly. No country accepts the EEZ and is considered international waters. > Several countries claim it Iceland, Denmark , UK and Ireland. > > In the coming months this rock in the middle of nowhere could potentially > turn into a larger issue with the UK exit from the EU as Iceland, Ireland and > other EU country all fish here > Last summer there was a standoff with the UK Navy and fishing boats. The > Irish Navy have also regularly patrol the area in protection of fishery > > I can give a list of references to show the EEZ recognized, but i don't think > that helpful > > I don't know the exact procedure here. I feel i didn't do it right. > > Happy to discuss further. > Cheers > Barry > > > From: Colin Smale > Sent: Monday 15 June 2020 21:39 > To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall > > > I just pointed the user concerned to the signup page to this mailing list, so > he should be here soon! Further to my earlier message I will not make any > changes to Rockall until we have had the discussion. > > Colin > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
Hi Folks, I made the below changes to rockall. The changes i've made are 1) Changed Rockall from Island to Rock 2) Removed the Administration boundary 1) Rockall is not a island. You could debate its a rock or islet but it cant sustain human life. References: 1) Wikipedia calls it a islet 2 https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2011-03-24.365.0 Irish Government call it a rock 3)https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html - Uk Government call it a islet 4) The hint is in its name š 2) The reason for removing the administration boundary is i wanted to remove the EEZ around rockall.( The big circle) From a visual point of view this looks off. it implies there is an island or county there. But more importantly it is incorrect Firstly even according the the UK. The EEZ wouldn't be 200nm, it would be 12 - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/97923/response/262438/attach/html/3/0109%2012.pdf.html Secondly. No country accepts the EEZ and is considered international waters. Several countries claim it Iceland, Denmark , UK and Ireland. In the coming months this rock in the middle of nowhere could potentially turn into a larger issue with the UK exit from the EU as Iceland, Ireland and other EU country all fish here Last summer there was a standoff with the UK Navy and fishing boats. The Irish Navy have also regularly patrol the area in protection of fishery I can give a list of references to show the EEZ recognized, but i don't think that helpful I don't know the exact procedure here. I feel i didn't do it right. Happy to discuss further. Cheers Barry From: Colin Smale Sent: Monday 15 June 2020 21:39 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall I just pointed the user concerned to the signup page to this mailing list, so he should be here soon! Further to my earlier message I will not make any changes to Rockall until we have had the discussion. Colin ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
I just pointed the user concerned to the signup page to this mailing list, so he should be here soon! Further to my earlier message I will not make any changes to Rockall until we have had the discussion. Colin___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
On 2020-06-15 15:36, Mark Goodge wrote: > I'd just revert it. I'll give them until tomorrow to see if there is any further engagement. Otherwise I will fix it up as place=islet and resurrecting the coastline and admin boundaries. Colin___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
On 15/06/2020 10:23, Colin Smale wrote: A new mapper has changed the status of Rockall, removing it from the UK admin boundaries. As I understand it Rockall is accepted as UK territory although it can't be used as a baseline to extend the EEZ. I contacted the mapper with a changeset comment and their motivation is based on "fixing the EEZ". Wikipedia suggests that Rockall is considered (administratively speaking) part of the isle of Harris, in the Western Isles. As Rockall has from time to time been the subject of a territorial dispute with Ireland, should we use the "disputed territories" process for Rockall? I'd just revert it. There's no dispute as such about the ownership of Rockall, as no other country claims it. Ireland doesn't recognise UK sovereignty over Rockall, but doesn't claim it for itself either. I see that the mapper in question has also changed the description of Rockall from island to rock, which also seems wrong to me. It is an island, albeit a very small one. But those are their only two edits, which suggests that they have a particular aganda rather than trying to improve OSM. I think both edits should be reverted for now, but the mapper should be invited to suggest the changes he wants here and see if he can get a consensus around them. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
I also note that the editor changed Rockall from āislandā to ābare rockā, and that Colin has question this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624262 For what itās worth, I suggest the correct tag for Rockall is āisletā: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dislet This is supported by Rockallās wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall) āRockall (/ĖrÉkÉĖl/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English>) is an uninhabitable granite islet<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islet> in the exclusive economic zone<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone> (EEZ) of the United Kingdom<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom>,ā and by the (not official!) definition of āan islet has little or no vegetation, and cannot support human habitationā (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islet). From: Andy Townsend Sent: 15 June 2020 13:53 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall In situations like this I'd invite the new mapper to discuss things more widely (which Colin has already done on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359 ) and then revert the changes pending any discussion here. The new mapper is already aware of the changeset discussion (they've replied) so hopefully won't then just change it back. Best Regards, Andy On 15/06/2020 11:17, Gareth L wrote: Probably? I am not familiar with the disputed territories process for Osm. Itās a weird one as only the U.K. has claimed sovereignty. Others donāt accept the claim, but also havenāt made a sovereignty claim themselves. So at the moment, the U.K. is the administrator - and there is an absence of any others. Iād say it should remain mapped as U.K. administrative boundary but also flagged as disputed.. if that can be done? Gareth On 15 Jun 2020, at 10:24, Colin Smale <mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl> wrote: ļ»æ A new mapper has changed the status of Rockall, removing it from the UK admin boundaries. As I understand it Rockall is accepted as UK territory although it can't be used as a baseline to extend the EEZ. I contacted the mapper with a changeset comment and their motivation is based on "fixing the EEZ". Wikipedia suggests that Rockall is considered (administratively speaking) part of the isle of Harris, in the Western Isles. As Rockall has from time to time been the subject of a territorial dispute with Ireland, should we use the "disputed territories" process for Rockall? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org<mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org<mailto:Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
In situations like this I'd invite the new mapper to discuss things more widely (which Colin has already done on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359 ) and then revert the changes pending any discussion here. The new mapper is already aware of the changeset discussion (they've replied) so hopefully won't then just change it back. Best Regards, Andy On 15/06/2020 11:17, Gareth L wrote: Probably? I am not familiar with the disputed territories process for Osm. Itās a weird one as only the U.K. has claimed sovereignty. Others donāt accept the claim, but also havenāt made a sovereignty claim themselves. So at the moment, the U.K. is the administrator - and there is an absence of any others. Iād say it should remain mapped as U.K. administrative boundary but also flagged as disputed.. if that can be done? Gareth On 15 Jun 2020, at 10:24, Colin Smale wrote: ļ»æ A new mapper has changed the status of Rockall, removing it from the UK admin boundaries. As I understand it Rockall is accepted as UK territory although it can't be used as a baseline to extend the EEZ. I contacted the mapper with a changeset comment and their motivation is based on "fixing the EEZ". Wikipedia suggests that Rockall is considered (administratively speaking) part of the isle of Harris, in the Western Isles. As Rockall has from time to time been the subject of a territorial dispute with Ireland, should we use the "disputed territories" process for Rockall? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Rockall
Probably? I am not familiar with the disputed territories process for Osm. Itās a weird one as only the U.K. has claimed sovereignty. Others donāt accept the claim, but also havenāt made a sovereignty claim themselves. So at the moment, the U.K. is the administrator - and there is an absence of any others. Iād say it should remain mapped as U.K. administrative boundary but also flagged as disputed.. if that can be done? Gareth On 15 Jun 2020, at 10:24, Colin Smale wrote: ļ»æ A new mapper has changed the status of Rockall, removing it from the UK admin boundaries. As I understand it Rockall is accepted as UK territory although it can't be used as a baseline to extend the EEZ. I contacted the mapper with a changeset comment and their motivation is based on "fixing the EEZ". Wikipedia suggests that Rockall is considered (administratively speaking) part of the isle of Harris, in the Western Isles. As Rockall has from time to time been the subject of a territorial dispute with Ireland, should we use the "disputed territories" process for Rockall? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Rockall
A new mapper has changed the status of Rockall, removing it from the UK admin boundaries. As I understand it Rockall is accepted as UK territory although it can't be used as a baseline to extend the EEZ. I contacted the mapper with a changeset comment and their motivation is based on "fixing the EEZ". Wikipedia suggests that Rockall is considered (administratively speaking) part of the isle of Harris, in the Western Isles. As Rockall has from time to time been the subject of a territorial dispute with Ireland, should we use the "disputed territories" process for Rockall? https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86624359___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
