Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
Does it measure importance sensibly or is it a category only weakly related to importance like the authority that maintains roads? -- Andrew From: Mark Goodge Sent: 07 September 2018 14:51 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk On 07/09/2018 13:06, Martin Wynne wrote: > >> But that only applies to that particular street. What do you do when >> somewhere has some streets that are fully lit and some that aren't? >> Are you planning to go round every street in a settlement, check the >> street lights, total them all up and then use that to decide whether >> it's a town or a village? Especially when you can just look it up! > > Hi Mark, > > If you can just look it up, you don't need to do anything else. But that's my point. We can just look it up, if we start from the assumption that the Local Government Act distinction between a town and a village (technically, between a town and a parish, but that's just terminology) is definitive. So observation doesn't need to come into it. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
Chris wrote: > The parish council website sits on the fence and calls it a 'thriving > community'. At the top of their home page that's true. Lower down they get off the fence and write "Please do take a look at our PhotoGallery of our beautiful village" http://wickhammarket.onesuffolk.net Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 2018-09-07 18:27, Philip Barnes wrote: > On 7 September 2018 15:58:58 CEST, Martin Wynne wrote: > But that's my point. We can just look it up, if we start from the > assumption that the Local Government Act distinction between a town and a > village (technically, between a town and a parish, but that's just > terminology) is definitive. So observation doesn't need to come into it. > > If that's the case, what was the reason for this topic? > > Martin. Well the thread was started to try to clarify why one, I assume not local mapper, keeps changing Downham Market to a village. ... and there is clearly enough tolerance in the current OSM "definition" that it is yet again one opinion versus another.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 7 September 2018 15:58:58 CEST, Martin Wynne wrote: > >> But that's my point. We can just look it up, if we start from the >> assumption that the Local Government Act distinction between a town >and >> a village (technically, between a town and a parish, but that's just >> terminology) is definitive. So observation doesn't need to come into >it. > >If that's the case, what was the reason for this topic? > >Martin. > Well the thread was started to try to clarify why one, I assume not local mapper, keeps changing Downham Market to a village. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 2018-09-07 15:51, Mark Goodge wrote: > But that's my point. We can just look it up, if we start from the assumption > that the Local Government Act distinction between a town and a village > (technically, between a town and a parish, but that's just terminology) is > definitive. So observation doesn't need to come into it. > If you can just look it up, you don't need to do anything else. I have just read through the LGA 1972 and there is no definition of a "town". The LGA doesn't seem to define what a town is, other than as a consequence of a Parish Council deciding to call itself a Town Council. The administrative area is still a Parish, and nothing changes about that when a council resolves to change its official style to Town Council. BTW, Salisbury City Council is also just a parish council, with the same powers as Wickham Market Parish Council (except it gets to have a Mayor). Using the parish style to define what is a town cannot be a complete definition, only an indication, as there are plenty of towns in unparished areas.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
But that's my point. We can just look it up, if we start from the assumption that the Local Government Act distinction between a town and a village (technically, between a town and a parish, but that's just terminology) is definitive. So observation doesn't need to come into it. If that's the case, what was the reason for this topic? Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 12:51, Chris Hill wrote: One place to look is OS Open Names. That has place names listed with a category of populated place that seems to be hamlet, village, town or suburban area. That lists Wickham Market as a town. That seems to be going solely by size, and is used to indicate how the name is displayed on OS maps. I'm not sure it's necessarily valuable in other contexts. Wikipedia, on the other hand, says it is a large village. The parish council website sits on the fence and calls it a 'thriving community'. It has a dropdown link for "Our Village" at the top. But, interestingly, that gives some of the history which indicates that it was once considered a town - it had a charter market, and two charter fairs, but these have since lapsed. So that may be the root cause of the disagreement in this case - there may be people who think that the past is more important than the current situation (see also, historic counties!). Legally, it's definitely not a town as it has a parish council, not a town council. I'd plump for townage or maybe villown. Or, maybe, just "place" :-) Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
One place to look is OS Open Names. That has place names listed with a category of populated place that seems to be hamlet, village, town or suburban area. That lists Wickham Market as a town. Wikipedia, on the other hand, says it is a large village. The parish council website sits on the fence and calls it a 'thriving community'. I'd plump for townage or maybe villown. Cheers, Chris On 06/09/2018 22:00, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote: Is anyone familiar with this area? Someone's mentioned on IRC that Wickham Market has been changed from town to village and back a couple of times: http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=114148812 Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who added it as such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct? I'll comment on the latest change about this thread so that everyone's aware of it. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- cheers Chris Hill (chillly) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 12:37, Martin Wynne wrote: But it's not a useful indicator, because it's least reliable precisely in the cases where you are most uncertain. Surely the more uncertain you are, the more useful an indicator becomes? Only if the indicator is reliable though, And it's least likely to be reliable when other observational factors are inconclusive. The presence or absence of a row of street lamps is not a wishy-washy legal opinion, or an argument in the local pub. It is an undisputed fact, to be called in evidence when someone demands an explanation for your mapping. But that only applies to that particular street. What do you do when somewhere has some streets that are fully lit and some that aren't? Are you planning to go round every street in a settlement, check the street lights, total them all up and then use that to decide whether it's a town or a village? Especially when you can just look it up! Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 12:28, Stuart Reynolds wrote: I would support a simple, objective definition, based on population size. Population of what, though? The contiguous urban area? The local government entity? And by what measurement? Most recent census? Electoral roll? Current estimate? Unless you can agree on all of those, it isn't completely objective. But if you do have one specific measurement, it's no longer simple. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
But it's not a useful indicator, because it's least reliable precisely in the cases where you are most uncertain. Surely the more uncertain you are, the more useful an indicator becomes? The presence or absence of a row of street lamps is not a wishy-washy legal opinion, or an argument in the local pub. It is an undisputed fact, to be called in evidence when someone demands an explanation for your mapping. If you don't know whether somewhere is a town or a village, it's a fair bet that a lot of others don't agree either. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
W.r.t. the use of street lighting as a differentiating factor between a Town and a Village: Do the Road Traffic Acts at any point refer to this distinction? I bet they don't It's all about "built-up area" and "restricted road" status.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/18 21:04, Mark Goodge wrote: On 07/09/2018 11:35, Martin Wynne wrote: You were suggesting identifying them by observation, using street lights as a distinguishing factor. Yes, in the event that you are uncertain. I said it was a useful indicator. But it's not a useful indicator, because it's least reliable precisely in the cases where you are most uncertain. You guys need to get back to the essential basic question. How many pubs? :)) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
Sent from MailDroid -Original Message- From: Mark Goodge To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Sent: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 11:32 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk On 07/09/2018 11:25, Martin Wynne wrote: >> If it were true, then almost every village would need 30mph repeater >> signs throughout, as they wouldn't have enough lighting to count as a >> built up area. In practice, though, they don't. > > Yes they do. At least all the villages I know have 30mph repeaters. > Here's a couple at random: > > https://goo.gl/maps/zMfNHUFTSW92 > > https://goo.gl/maps/N96GbyndYRB2 None of the villages round here do. Nor do any of those I've lived in previously. (Quoting crap on mobile clients!) Broadway is still a village in my book, and had to sort speed limit signs when speeding tickets were found invalid. In some ways the facebook singular 'city' designation makes some sence. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 11:35, Martin Wynne wrote: You were suggesting identifying them by observation, using street lights as a distinguishing factor. Yes, in the event that you are uncertain. I said it was a useful indicator. But it's not a useful indicator, because it's least reliable precisely in the cases where you are most uncertain. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
You were suggesting identifying them by observation, using street lights as a distinguishing factor. Yes, in the event that you are uncertain. I said it was a useful indicator. If you already know, you don't need an indicator. No-one is going to be in any doubt about whether Evesham is a town or a village. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 11:25, Martin Wynne wrote: If it were true, then almost every village would need 30mph repeater signs throughout, as they wouldn't have enough lighting to count as a built up area. In practice, though, they don't. Yes they do. At least all the villages I know have 30mph repeaters. Here's a couple at random: https://goo.gl/maps/zMfNHUFTSW92 https://goo.gl/maps/N96GbyndYRB2 None of the villages round here do. Nor do any of those I've lived in previously. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 11:10, Martin Wynne wrote: Here's a couple of locations near me. One is in a village, the other is in a town. Can you tell, just by looking at them, which is which? If you already know one is a village and the other is a town, why do you need any other means of identifying them? You were suggesting identifying them by observation, using street lights as a distinguishing factor. However, this road in Badsey has no street lighting. If it was in a town, it would have: https://goo.gl/maps/LdvB1zisEiP2 This road in Evesham has no street lights. That doesn't make it a village: https://goo.gl/maps/dvyf4foNydN2 It is true that the larger the urban area, the more likely it is to be consistently lit, and towns tend to be larger than villages. But that's just a variant of using population size to differentiate between a village and a town. It's only reliable at the ends of the spectrum, where there is already little dispute. It doesn't help with the edge cases or the atypical scenarios. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/18 10:47, Martin Wynne wrote: The great advantage of this definition for mapping is that it is an undisputed fact, on the ground. You put lots of caveats into this, which leads lots of grounds for disputes. One thing to remember is that OSM is international and the town/village/city concepts don't map cleanly to other cultures. Even US English has a rather different concept of city. What I've seen, in the context of other countries, is population being favoured as the determiner. Obviously you can get over-pedantic about borderline cases. The thing that makes the UK difficult is that the tag values look like the common language terms and match well enough to be right, a lot of the time. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
I think the presence of streetlights is a regional thing, certainly in Leicestershire only the smaller rural villages will lack street lights. Phil (trigpoint) On 7 September 2018 11:47:16 CEST, Martin Wynne wrote: > >> There are, indeed, multiple definitions of the difference between a >town >> and a village > >A useful indicator is the street lighting. > >Generally a town has continuous evenly spaced street lamps along all or > >most roads within its boundary. > >Villages often have no street lighting, or only a few strategic lamps >scattered about. > >The great advantage of this definition for mapping is that it is an >undisputed fact, on the ground. > >Martin. > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 10:47, Martin Wynne wrote: There are, indeed, multiple definitions of the difference between a town and a village A useful indicator is the street lighting. Generally a town has continuous evenly spaced street lamps along all or most roads within its boundary. Villages often have no street lighting, or only a few strategic lamps scattered about. That is really not true at all. It may be true for very small rural villages, but not for the vast majority of them. If it were true, then almost every village would need 30mph repeater signs throughout, as they wouldn't have enough lighting to count as a built up area. In practice, though, they don't. Here's a couple of locations near me. One is in a village, the other is in a town. Can you tell, just by looking at them, which is which? https://goo.gl/maps/LcBE9EmjcTR2 https://goo.gl/maps/j8SWzBjjkeQ2 Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
There are, indeed, multiple definitions of the difference between a town and a village A useful indicator is the street lighting. Generally a town has continuous evenly spaced street lamps along all or most roads within its boundary. Villages often have no street lighting, or only a few strategic lamps scattered about. The great advantage of this definition for mapping is that it is an undisputed fact, on the ground. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 07/09/2018 09:06, Colin Smale wrote:
On 2018-09-07 09:37, Mark Goodge wrote:
Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who
added it as such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct?
I'll comment on the latest change about this thread so that
everyone's aware of it.
It has a parish council that has not chosen to style itself as a
town council. So, officially, it's a village.
How does that make it official? There are Town Councils whose name
does not reference an existing place, so what the council calls
itself doesn't make it official...
It does according to the Local Government Act 1972, which is what
defines a town for the purposes of local government.
Once upon a time a Town was a place that had been granted the right
to hold its own market, wasn't it? By that yardstick WM would appear
to be a town. Once again, there is no straight answer to the
question "Is Whickam Market a town or a village?" The only single
correct answer is "it depends" and there are a variety of correct
answers according to the criterion you are using.
There are, indeed, multiple definitions of the difference between a town
and a village, although the idea that all towns have markets and
villages don't isn't really one of them (that's just something of a folk
story). Lots of villages have markets, lots of towns don't. There is
such a thing as a "charter market", which was, originally, only granted
to towns, but if we use that as the basis then we're getting a bit into
historic county territory (as well as having to redefine several quite
large towns as villages!).
So now OSM (or the OSM community or the OSMUK local chapter) has to
get off the fence and pick one. Or pick all of them by adding
multiple tags, like market=yes, population=X etc. That provides the
objective raw data so that data consumers (including renderers) can
make their own decisions.
Multiple tags are certainly helpful, yes. But the particular tag under
discussion here is the 'place' tag.
I do think it's valuable to have a consistent approach to what goes in
the 'place' tag, which means having an agreed approach. Personally, I
think that the Local Government Act distinction between a village and a
town is the most useful, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's clear
and unambiguous, it's objective rather than subjective. Secondly, it's
easy to find out, it doesn't rely on local knowledge. Also, it tends to
be the distinction that's most relevant to most people's everyday lives.
Other definitions are more problematic. There are two main historical
definitions, one based around town charters and the other around
ecclesiastical parishes, but you need to know the history of a
particular place to be able to apply them. And, in any case, they go
against the OSM principle that we map what is, not what was. Using them
would also create some rather ridiculous situations; Milton Keynes, for
example, is clearly a town by any sensible current definition but would
still be a village by historic definitions.
Equally, using a simple numeric formula ("it's a village if it has fewer
than X inhabitants") is harder than it looks. Quite apart from the
difficulty of determining the actual number of residents, it creates
edge cases where places that are legally and colloquially known as towns
would have to be mapped as villages, and vice versa. Residents of
Lancing, for example, are quite proud to live in the largest village in
England! Who are we to tell them that they don't?
Apart from using the legal definition, therefore, it seems to me that
the only other practical option is to leave it entirely subjective, and
go by what people perceive their town or village to be - to use
whichever of the historic, legal or numeric definitions is most
appropriate for them. But then you have the problem that not everybody
agrees (which I suspect is the issue with Wickham Market, which is why
it's alternated between village and town). And how can the OSM community
be sure that a particular designation really is what the majority of
local residents think, rather than just being the bee in some
individual's bonnet?
Obviously, all of the above is just my opinion, and others may well
disagree. But I'd go by the official designation in any places that I
mapped, unless there's an agreed OSM policy otherwise.
Mark
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 2018-09-07 09:37, Mark Goodge wrote: > Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who added it as > such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct? I'll comment on the > latest change about this thread so that everyone's aware of it. > It has a parish council that has not chosen to style itself as a town > council. So, officially, it's a village. How does that make it official? There are Town Councils whose name does not reference an existing place, so what the council calls itself doesn't make it official... Once upon a time a Town was a place that had been granted the right to hold its own market, wasn't it? By that yardstick WM would appear to be a town. Once again, there is no straight answer to the question "Is Whickam Market a town or a village?" The only single correct answer is "it depends" and there are a variety of correct answers according to the criterion you are using. So now OSM (or the OSM community or the OSMUK local chapter) has to get off the fence and pick one. Or pick all of them by adding multiple tags, like market=yes, population=X etc. That provides the objective raw data so that data consumers (including renderers) can make their own decisions.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
On 06/09/2018 22:00, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote: Is anyone familiar with this area? Someone's mentioned on IRC that Wickham Market has been changed from town to village and back a couple of times: http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=114148812 Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who added it as such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct? I'll comment on the latest change about this thread so that everyone's aware of it. It has a parish council that has not chosen to style itself as a town council. So, officially, it's a village. http://wickhammarket.onesuffolk.net/ It's also a bit small for a town. According to Wikipedia (which also considers it a village) it has a population of just over 2,000. I wouldn't normally consider that a town. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickham_Market However, local usage may be different. The real question is whether OSM has a policy of always following official usage or whether local usage can take precedence. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk
Is anyone familiar with this area? Someone's mentioned on IRC that Wickham Market has been changed from town to village and back a couple of times: http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=114148812 Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who added it as such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct? I'll comment on the latest change about this thread so that everyone's aware of it. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
