Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Gregory]

The height issue is something I see as problematic, but the proposed
solution is suitable.
A lot of data outputs are doing 3D but would treat the height values as
unknown units. Give something they can accept (eg maximum height), and
provide more detail (ie height:range) for those systems that know to deal
with it (eg something looking at natural objects!).

>From Newcastle,
Gregory (LivingWithDragons).

On 9 May 2017 8:29 a.m., "Paul Norman"  wrote:

> On 4/27/2017 12:26 PM, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of
> changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take this
> import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.
>
> I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page
> 
> with some comments and ideas. I've copied below what I think are the
> relevant bits from the wiki page and I look forward to resolving the issues
> as I'm keen to complete the import.
>
>
> Don't forget the need to consult with imports@ as part of the
> consultation with the community.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Paul Norman]

On 4/27/2017 12:26 PM, Brian Prangle wrote:
Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of 
changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take 
this import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.


I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page 
 
with some comments and ideas. I've copied below what I think are the 
relevant bits from the wiki page and I look forward to resolving the 
issues as I'm keen to complete the import.


Don't forget the need to consult with imports@ as part of the 
consultation with the community.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Harry Wood]

> On 27/04/2017 20:26, Brian Prangle wrote:

> I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page with some comments and ideas.

This one: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data 

I don't want you to think of it as *my* wiki page. Like any wiki page we should 
aim to reflect the balance of opinion on there. I tried to distill discussion 
so far. Actually we haven't discussed the tree tags all that much. I was 
summarising a lot from Will Phillips Mar 19th: 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-March/020058.html
...with a bit of my own opinion in stirred in.


There's a section of the wiki page 'Data fields'...
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data#Data_fields
which you could fill in with more details. form, age, plot_number, and (as 
already mentioned) usrn, could all do with some explanation.

As for my own opinions on the tags, my main feeling is that they add up to 
quite a heavyweight transfer of database columns. I think I would suggest 
slimming out these ones entirely:
  site_name=LUDGATE HILL
  ward=Ladywood
  constituency=City Centre
Because (like the old is_in tag) these are not technically necessary, and not 
really appropriate for something as fine-grained and numerous as tree nodes.


> Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of
> changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take this
> import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.

Yes. I guess the question now is whether it's necessary to fix some aspects of 
the tagging via a corrective bulk edit, and whether that should happen before 
or after finishing off the last bit of the import.

You said you've done quadrants of the city: NW,SW & SE completed. So just the 
NE quadrant to finish off. You've added 42,974 so far, so there's what? another 
~15,000 trees to add?  To me it seems reasonable to just finish that off. That 
leaves us with a consistent uniform set of trees tagged the same way (to fix if 
needed).

Harry

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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Dan S]

Hi

Well, as a humble community member, IMHO most of the "tag problems"
listed at 

are indeed problems. (I have no comment on species/genus tagging
though.) Easy fixes:
- change "usrn" to "ref:usrn" as requested, and document its meaning
on the wiki;
- format "height" values in the common format as requested, or perhaps
"est_height" if only a range and not an exact value is known.
Both of those easy fixes will make it easier for people who weren't
involved in this import to make sense of the data.

A question: if "site_name" is indeed always a street, would it make
sense perhaps to import it as "addr:street"? I realise some people
might find this weird. I suggest it since it might make the semantics
a bit more obvious to people in future years trying to make sense of
the data, perhaps this as well as other imports from other datasets.

Best
Dan


2017-05-07 14:31 GMT+01:00 Andy Townsend :
> Anyone got any more comments about this import and the points raised below?
>
> We (the DWG) got a complaint about it at the time (and there were a lot of
> "not in my name" comments on this list and on IRC), but there don't seem to
> have been any further comments since 27th April.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On 27/04/2017 20:26, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of
> changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take this
> import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.
>
> I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page with some comments and ideas. I've
> copied below what I think are the relevant bits from the wiki page and I
> look forward to resolving the issues as I'm keen to complete the import.
>
> Extract from wiki page:
>
> So update approach is to be planned. This is not a requirement currently
> listed in the wiki imports guidelines. However it is good practice and the
> issue was raised with Amey and Birmingham City Council as soon as the data
> was released. Don't expect quick results!
>
> Import user problems: The import so far has been entirely uploaded by the
> brianboru user account. The size of the import was such that it should have
> been carried out by specially created OpenStreetMap user account. This
> guideline is in order to create another mechanism of
> separating/disentangling these edits from normal mapping
>
> Solution: dedicated import account created: brianboruimport
>
> Tag problems :
>
> Example imported tree
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4721553869
>
> natural=tree source=bcc_dec_2016 form=Natural age=New Planting height=2 to
> 2.99m species=Liquidambar styraciflua 'Worpl usrn=2701986 plot_number=110007
> site_name=LUDGATE HILL ward=Ladywood constituency=City Centre
>
> Areas: ward, and constituency tags describe the area a tree is in. That is
> not a normal thing to do with tags on many nodes. A lot of data which
> ordinarily should be determined by a data user (if they require it) by
> geo-querying boundaries information. These tags will have a data update
> problems when the political boundaries change The local community decided
> some years ago not to add political boundaries, so there is currenty no
> other way of querying the tree data by this attribute. This will need
> revisiting once the boundary changes are in effect
> 'site_name' key which contains the street name written in all capitals. Did
> this need importing, and if so, did it have to be in capitals? Enables the
> average joe/jane to query data by street name. Is the use of capitals a
> problem apart from being ugly? Maybe searches are case-sensitive? The
> downoaded dateset used for import has been edited so that this field is
> "Properly Cased" so any new imports won't be affected. Can also bulk edit
> existing imported data
> 'usrn' appears to be an identifier (Unique Street Reference Number). The
> purpose for this should be documented. Perhaps local_ref or ref:usrn should
> have been used. usrn is indeed Unique Street Reference No. Its purpose is
> documented in the link and is a national standard for referencing streets.
> 'height' values are formatted in a non-standard way (See Key:height) Is this
> a problem? Not everything is recorded to a standard. If there is insistence
> on a standard then it can be fixed e.g by tagging the existing data as
> height:range and tagging with height =x where x= the nearest whole number at
> the upper end of the range
> species but no genus ? See example above which uses normal binomial name
> of genus and species (and includes in this case a cultivar)
>
> Regards
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 14 April 2017 at 17:24, ajt1...@gmail.com  wrote:
>>
>> On 13/04/2017 20:26, ael wrote:
>>>
>>> And none of the 3 suggested causes applies in my case.
>>
>>
>> What was the problem in your case?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Andy Mabbett]

On 7 May 2017 at 14:31, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Anyone got any more comments about this import

JFDI.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Andy Townsend]

Anyone got any more comments about this import and the points raised below?

We (the DWG) got a complaint about it at the time (and there were a lot 
of "not in my name" comments on this list and on IRC), but there don't 
seem to have been any further comments since 27th April.


Best Regards,

Andy


On 27/04/2017 20:26, Brian Prangle wrote:
Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of 
changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take 
this import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.


I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page 
 
with some comments and ideas. I've copied below what I think are the 
relevant bits from the wiki page and I look forward to resolving the 
issues as I'm keen to complete the import.


Extract from wiki page:

So update approach is to be planned. /*This is not a requirement 
currently listed in the wiki imports guidelines. However it is good 
practice and the issue was raised with Amey and Birmingham City 
Council as soon as the data was released. Don't expect quick results!*/


*Import user problems*: The import so far has been entirely uploaded 
by the brianboru  user 
account. The size of the import was such that it should have been 
carried out by specially created OpenStreetMap user account. This 
guideline is in order to create another mechanism of 
separating/disentangling these edits from normal mapping


/*Solution: dedicated import account created: brianboruimport 
*/


*Tag problems* :


  Example imported tree

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4721553869

natural =tree

source =bcc_dec_2016
form

=Natural
age

=New
Planting
height =2 to 2.99m
species
=Liquidambar
styraciflua 'Worpl
usrn

=2701986
plot_number

=110007
site_name

=LUDGATE
HILL
ward

=Ladywood
constituency

=City
Centre

  * Areas: ward, and constituency tags describe the /area/ a tree is
in. That is not a normal thing to do with tags on many nodes. A
lot of data which ordinarily should be determined by a data user
(if they require it) by geo-querying boundaries information. These
tags will have a data update problems when the political
boundaries change /*The local community decided some years ago not
to add political boundaries, so there is currenty no other way of
querying the tree data by this attribute. This will need
revisiting once the boundary changes are in effect*/
  * 'site_name' key which contains the street name written in all
capitals. Did this need importing, and if so, did it have to be in
capitals? /*Enables the average joe/jane to query data by street
name. Is the use of capitals a problem apart from being ugly?
Maybe searches are case-sensitive? The downoaded dateset used for
import has been edited so that this field is "Properly Cased" so
any new imports won't be affected. Can also bulk edit existing
imported data*/
  * 'usrn' appears to be an identifier (Unique Street Reference Number
). The
purpose for this should be documented. Perhaps local_ref or
ref:usrn should have been used. /*usrn is indeed Unique Street
Reference No. Its purpose is documented in the link and is a
national standard for referencing streets.*/
  * 'height' values are formatted in a non-standard way (See
Key:height ) /*Is
this a problem? Not everything is recorded to a standard. If there
is insistence on a standard then it can be fixed e.g by tagging
the existing data as height:range and tagging with height =x where
x= the nearest whole number at the upper end of the range*/
  * species but no genus /*? See example above which uses normal
binomial name of genus and species (and includes in this case a
cultivar)*/

Regards


Brian


On 14 April 2017 at 17:24, ajt1...@gmail.com 
 > 

Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 13/04/2017 20:26, ael wrote:

And none of the 3 suggested causes applies in my case.


What was the problem in your case?

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Michael Booth]

Surely instead of just using email to let users know about comments on 
changesets and notes, there should be some sort of notification on the 
OSM website as well? There already is a notification in the top right 
corner for unread messages - this should be extended to changesets and 
notes.


There will always be some people who have problems with emails getting 
through to them, so they shouldn't be solely relied upon.


On 13/04/2017 16:53, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 13/04/2017 16:12, Brian Prangle wrote:


On the subject of fixing things, my block seems to have been 
precipitated by my not participating in changeset discussions of 
which I still remain oblivious because apparently the automatic email 
notification system breaks randomly and it seems I'm one of its 
victims. I can't fix this and I think it's a problem of at least two 
years standing.




I've seen a few different ways that emails can "not be delivered"; the 
good news is that they're all user-fixable.


1) One kind of problem is over-zealous spam filtering by your email 
provider.  A bit of training (regularly checking spam folders and 
fishing valid mail out) should work here.  If it doesn't, change your 
email provider.  With gmail (which your list mail and mine are using) 
I occasionally have to check the junk folder to fish out non-English 
emails, but otherwise it's pretty good at spam recognition.


2) Another is that you've tried to change email addresses in the past 
and not confirmed the "new" address.  To fix this go into "My 
Settings" and change email again, this time making sure that you click 
on the link within the "Confirm your e-mail address" email.


3) A third problem I've seen (but pretty unlikely to be the case here) 
is where you'd specified to your email provider that you want email 
delivered to a particular host and then for whatever reason that 
becomes impossible (perhaps the target server goes down).  Again, fix 
the problem that prevents email delivery, reconfirm the settings with 
your email provider and hosts should start retrying again shortly.




In the meantime is there any workround for viewing changeset discussions?



The ubiquitous Pascal Neis has an answer that's actually far better 
than a workaround.   Using the userid for a particular user you can 
browse to e.g.:


http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=9065

or you can click through from an entry in e.g. 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions?c=United%20Kingdom .


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[ael]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 04:53:12PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> On 13/04/2017 16:12, Brian Prangle wrote:
> > 
> > precipitated by my not participating in changeset discussions of which I
> > still remain oblivious because apparently the automatic email
> > notification system breaks randomly and it seems I'm one of its victims.
> 
> I've seen a few different ways that emails can "not be delivered"; the good
> news is that they're all user-fixable.

Although very few of my changesets have provoked discussion, so my
memory could be at fault, I am fairly confident that I only discovered
them by accident. And none of the 3 suggested causes applies in my case.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Andy Townsend]

On 13/04/2017 16:12, Brian Prangle wrote:


On the subject of fixing things, my block seems to have been 
precipitated by my not participating in changeset discussions of which 
I still remain oblivious because apparently the automatic email 
notification system breaks randomly and it seems I'm one of its 
victims. I can't fix this and I think it's a problem of at least two 
years standing.




I've seen a few different ways that emails can "not be delivered"; the 
good news is that they're all user-fixable.


1) One kind of problem is over-zealous spam filtering by your email 
provider.  A bit of training (regularly checking spam folders and 
fishing valid mail out) should work here.  If it doesn't, change your 
email provider.  With gmail (which your list mail and mine are using) I 
occasionally have to check the junk folder to fish out non-English 
emails, but otherwise it's pretty good at spam recognition.


2) Another is that you've tried to change email addresses in the past 
and not confirmed the "new" address.  To fix this go into "My Settings" 
and change email again, this time making sure that you click on the link 
within the "Confirm your e-mail address" email.


3) A third problem I've seen (but pretty unlikely to be the case here) 
is where you'd specified to your email provider that you want email 
delivered to a particular host and then for whatever reason that becomes 
impossible (perhaps the target server goes down). Again, fix the problem 
that prevents email delivery, reconfirm the settings with your email 
provider and hosts should start retrying again shortly.




In the meantime is there any workround for viewing changeset discussions?



The ubiquitous Pascal Neis has an answer that's actually far better than 
a workaround.   Using the userid for a particular user you can browse to 
e.g.:


http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=9065

or you can click through from an entry in e.g. 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions?c=United%20Kingdom .


Best Regards,

Andy

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