Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:31:08 +0100
Miguel Sevilla-Callejo  wrote:

> El 14/8/2017 14:42, "Andy Townsend"  escribió:
> 
> Hi Miguel,
> 
> A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
> English-speaking.  For somewhere like https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of both the Welsh and English
> names rather than the more frequently / locally used version, how would I
> know what the preferred name actually was?
> 
> 

> 
> Saludos
> 
> Miguel
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
I'm a Welsh mapper, born here, in an English speaking part of Wales, south 
Pembrokeshire.

I must admit that I hadn't even thought about the Welsh/English thing, since it 
never was an issue for me. I've always just mapped what was there.

As far as the dominance/superiority of English, we're (or at least I am, in my 
late 50's) used to it and pretty much ignore it. Personally I don't care. But 
I've also encountered some people in Aber who cared intensely. Let them; life 
is short.

I agree the WIKI is mostly a guide, (like the pirate) code). and I've often 
tried to reference it and sometimes been more confused after than before. 
Mostly, I've been informed though.

I map what I know, locally. I don't seagull (which is really annoying, as 
there's really no such thing as a "seagull" species, but I guess you knew that. 
Right?) map, or, Bing map, unless it's bloody obvious. (Re: Pokemon).

Anyway, that's my view as a Welsh mapper.

That said. People wanting to improve the map should be given all the help 
available and a confusing WIKI is of no help at all.

Feel free to contact me for other random thoughts.

Lostmike
Wales
Saludos

Being Welsh doesn't make me special. Or does it?...


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

El 14/8/2017 14:42, "Andy Townsend"  escribió:

Hi Miguel,

A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
English-speaking.  For somewhere like https://www.openstreetmap.org/
node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of both the Welsh and English
names rather than the more frequently / locally used version, how would I
know what the preferred name actually was?


Of course there could be places as nodes it could have an English or Welsh
name as their more common one. A survey is needed for that.

Anyway an neutral approach is right from my point of view and I was talking
mainly about street names.


Currently the answer is easy - look at the "name" tag.  If "name" is
instead a compound, how do you suggest a map consumer - or someone just
looking at a map - should do that?


Yes


There are several places in the World like some regions in Spain, as I said
before, where we use this approach.

I guess some of you don't like only for eastetic problem and I'm afraid
some could think Welsh is a minor or not serious language (even within the
BBC in London some think so...)

Anyway there is no reason to have the most frequently situation I found:
name=English; name:cy=Welsh_name. In this situation Welsh is been relegated
to a second place. Then, at least we have to add a "name:en" and later
let's think what to do with "name" tag. It's cristal clear for me.

No more comments about the arbitrary and unilateral change in the wiki.
It's amazing! I'm telling that in Spanish community and they couldn't
believe.

Saludos

Miguel


Best Regards,

Andy



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 14/08/2017 15:04, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?
>
>
> From looking at the sign, you can't - but if you visit a place and open your
> eyes and ears it'll become pretty obvious.  If you walk into a shop or a
> post office in the pointy bits of north Wales I can pretty much guarantee
> that people will be speaking Welsh.  It would be unfair and unrepresentative
> to suggest that English has equivalence where that is the case.  Signs -
> particularly road signs - appear in two languages throughout, but that
> doesn't mean that in a particular area both languages are in equal usage.
>

So, yes, Wales is different than Brussels. Following your rule, it
would mean many streets would have a French name in Brussels (if not
all).
Which would then create a political incident :-)

> What you can't expect to do is jump in with a "global search and replace"
> such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50943658 using level0 and
> not get complaints.

+1, I'll agree on that.

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 14/08/2017 15:04, Marc Gemis wrote:

So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?


From looking at the sign, you can't - but if you visit a place and open 
your eyes and ears it'll become pretty obvious.  If you walk into a shop 
or a post office in the pointy bits of north Wales I can pretty much 
guarantee that people will be speaking Welsh.  It would be unfair and 
unrepresentative to suggest that English has equivalence where that is 
the case.  Signs - particularly road signs - appear in two languages 
throughout, but that doesn't mean that in a particular area both 
languages are in equal usage.


What you can't expect to do is jump in with a "global search and 
replace" such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50943658 using 
level0 and not get complaints.


Best Regards,

Andy


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

Andy,

I'll agree that everything is not like in Belgium (luckily :-)  ). But
the screenshots Miguel showed, has street signs showing 2 names.
So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?
And also preferred to who ?

If you someone manage to determine that in a purely objective way, you
can fill in the name. I fail to see how the process to determine the
preferred name works.
In this thread I only read something about a few mappers deciding that it is X.

regards

m.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 14/08/2017 14:53, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
>> you correctly ?
>
>
> Marc,
>
> Everywhere is not like Belgium.  Could you try answering the question?
> Where there is a locally preferred name, how would I know what that was?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 14/08/2017 14:53, Marc Gemis wrote:

Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
you correctly ?


Marc,

Everywhere is not like Belgium.  Could you try answering the question?   
Where there is a locally preferred name, how would I know what that was?


Best Regards,

Andy


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

I don't understand this question. Who defines what the preferred name
is ? The people living in that street, neighborhood, village, Wales ?
Or the subset of mappers in any of those items ?

Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
you correctly ?

We came up with a solution where there is no preferred way for the
mapper, s/he writes in the name field what is on the street name sign
(nl & fr) and fills in the name:nl, name:fr fields. The data consumer
can then make a map with his/her preference.
Roughly 60% of the Belgian are Flemish and will prefer the nl-version.
But the majority of the inhabitants of Brussels (or certain
neighborhoods) are probably French speaking and well prefer the
fr-version. So "preferred" really depends on which group of people you
question.
Since this is rather subjective, writing down what you see on a sign
is much easier then starting a poll, not ?

regards

m.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> Hi Miguel,
>
> A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
> English-speaking.  For somewhere like
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of
> both the Welsh and English names rather than the more frequently / locally
> used version, how would I know what the preferred name actually was?
>
> Currently the answer is easy - look at the "name" tag.  If "name" is instead
> a compound, how do you suggest a map consumer - or someone just looking at a
> map - should do that?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb