Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
Ok cool, so i can pretend that 'route=recreation' exists and that it renders at the same zoom level as NCN and that is purpose is to map signed recreation routes that are NOT road cycling designated. And specicially for nationally confusing trails, such as the 'Trans Canada Trail'. I'll work on some documentation on the wiki (if its not done already) Athough 'NSN' National Smooth Network' gets my vote :-) cheers, Sam On 5/11/10, Dave F. wrote: > Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> "Serious Cyclists..." > Oh, yes, your absolutely right. If you've got panniers attached you > _must_ be so much more serious than anybody else. > >> (Cycling Active magazine keeps running features on it) but no-one else has >> ever even heard of it. > That says more about the magazine & its minimal clique readership. > > -- > > I agree it needs a separate designation. > > Dave F. > > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > "Serious Cyclists..." Oh, yes, your absolutely right. If you've got panniers attached you _must_ be so much more serious than anybody else. > (Cycling Active magazine keeps running features on it) but no-one else has > ever even heard of it. That says more about the magazine & its minimal clique readership. -- I agree it needs a separate designation. Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
Richard Fairhurst wrote: >Sent: 08 May 2010 12:20 PM >To: OSM - Talk GB >Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route > >On 08/05/2010 12:08, Sam Vekemans wrote: >> +101 for rendering it brown, so its different than NCN, RCN, LCN >> I can use it& promote it for the 'Trans Canada Trail' as a 'exact >> definition' as a "leasure route" with 'cycling being 1 activity, but >> not designated for that 1 activity'& mountain biking / road cycling / >> hiking / ATV /canoeing /motercycle /dogsled differences are 'purposly >> blured' >> -the actual activities are signposted. And the ways would very, >> depending on the ground truths. > >Thinking a bit further: > >At present we have three types of rendered cycle route: NCN, RCN and LCN. > >Really, the National Byway is a fourth category: a leisure/touring >route. There are lots of these in OSM at the moment, but generally >tagged as LCN (for example, the Four Castles Cycle Route in >Monmouthshire, or a number around Cheshire). This is pretty >unsatisfactory, as Local Cycle Networks are generally utility commuter >routes. It's akin to the "H" holiday routes found around the country for car tourers. Perhaps we could adopt the same idea. Cheers Andy > >So my suggestion would be that we choose a new relation tag for this >type of route. It's not a 'network' as such, so that doesn't work. But >you could perhaps do 'route=leisure' and 'bicycle=designated' or >something, for those who like 'designated'. Then renderers like OCM can >treat this as they wish. > >cheers >Richard > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2862 - Release Date: 05/08/10 >19:26:00 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
On 08/05/2010 13:43, Andy Allan wrote: > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Richard Fairhurst > wrote: >> Really, the National Byway is a fourth category: a leisure/touring >> route. There are lots of these in OSM at the moment, but generally >> tagged as LCN (for example, the Four Castles Cycle Route in >> Monmouthshire, or a number around Cheshire). This is pretty >> unsatisfactory, as Local Cycle Networks are generally utility commuter >> routes. > > I disagree here, I don't see in what way the National Cycle Network > isn't a leisure/touring route. The NCN proper serves three purposes: utility, short-distance family cycling, and touring. The National Byway is touring only. NCN 8 (Lon Las Cymru) is an interesting example. It's the toughest route on the whole NCN and some parts of it are very definitely for touring. (Some parts are verging on being mountain-bike only!) But go to Cardiff, and you'll be lucky to spot a tourer: there, NCN 8 is an enormously busy commuter/utility route from the northern suburbs into the city centre. Go up to the old railway path south of Caernarfon, and you'll see hordes of kids on bikes and their very nervous mums weaving along the path. The National Byway is very different. It's almost entirely country lanes, but with a willigness to head onto the nearest A road which is anathema to the NCN. It's quite telling that Serious Cyclists love the National Byway (Cycling Active magazine keeps running features on it) but no-one else has ever even heard of it. It's a classic old CTC-style touring route, and very lovely in its disorganised, incomplete way, but it's a million miles from the NCN. So there's a clear reason to tag the National Byway differently from the NCN proper, just as we tag trunk roads, say, differently from secondary roads: the user can expect different things from each of them. cheers Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
On 08/05/2010 11:31, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > David Dixon wrote: >> Apart from standardising the tagging, this would also add the Byway to >> opencyclemap. >> In the absence of dissent, I'll update as suggested so shout now if you >> disagree! > > As someone who's mapped lots of both the National Byway and the NCN - > disagree very very strongly. Thanks for the feedback Richard - interesting. > The National Byway is not a national cycle network, nor part of the > National Cycle Network, which is laid out to more exacting criteria. It > is a long-distance leisure route. If anything it is more akin to the > sort of route that is often tagged as 'rcn' in OSM (the old county > cycleways, that sort of thing). How much is the difference between Sustrans' long-distance routes and the Byway real, and how much just semantics? Yes, there is a different 'feel' between the two, but both are networks (the Byway is far more than a single route), both for cyclists, and both national. =ncn? In plenty of places, they share the same route. I'd also consider the National Cycle Routes to be leisure routes as well. > On the particular question of OCM rendering, AIUI Andy isn't opposed to > rendering the National Byway (brown?) from the current tagging, but just > hasn't had the chance yet. But he can answer better than I can. Your later message suggests an alternative route tag for the byway and other leisure routes. I sort of semi-agree, but at the same time consider that the National Byway in any other country would by automatically tagged as ncn, and we want to avoid overly specific tagging that may not be applicable elsewhere. Is it just that in the UK our definition of ncn is too narrow, being based solely on the (excellent) Sustrans network? OpenCycleMap could still distinguish between NCN and Byway: route=ncn --> red, route=ncn, operator=National Byway --> brown ? > I think at this point it is customary to use the phrase "tagging for the > renderer". :) I'd say "using accurate generic tagging that happily coincides with the renderer" instead ;-) David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > On 08/05/2010 12:08, Sam Vekemans wrote: >> +101 for rendering it brown, so its different than NCN, RCN, LCN >> I can use it& promote it for the 'Trans Canada Trail' as a 'exact >> definition' as a "leasure route" with 'cycling being 1 activity, but >> not designated for that 1 activity'& mountain biking / road cycling / >> hiking / ATV /canoeing /motercycle /dogsled differences are 'purposly >> blured' >> -the actual activities are signposted. And the ways would very, >> depending on the ground truths. > > Thinking a bit further: > > At present we have three types of rendered cycle route: NCN, RCN and LCN. Four. Mountain biking routes also get rendered. In green. On a green background. I know, I know. http://opencyclemap.org/?zoom=12&lat=52.55189&lon=-3.80213&layers=B000 Also missing is international cycle networks, but IMHO they don't really exist separately from NCNs, so I've not been rushing to render them until other higher-priority stuff gets sorted. > Really, the National Byway is a fourth category: a leisure/touring > route. There are lots of these in OSM at the moment, but generally > tagged as LCN (for example, the Four Castles Cycle Route in > Monmouthshire, or a number around Cheshire). This is pretty > unsatisfactory, as Local Cycle Networks are generally utility commuter > routes. I disagree here, I don't see in what way the National Cycle Network isn't a leisure/touring route. It's also worth pointing out that the n in ncn, lcn and rcn is clearly the wrong thing to have done, since the routes don't need to be part of a network - they should be route=ncr. Also, in the UK we have one specific network called (perhaps self-importantly?) "*THE* National Cycle Network", which leads to confusion. route=ncn should be used for any signed cycling route with national scope/importance regardless of Sustran's involvement. So the National Byway should be route=ncn, except that it's not a cycling network, it's a byway network. As Richard said earlier, I'll get round to rendering it at some point when the system upgrade is complete. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
Ok, so route=leisure; bicycle=designated rendering of brown & at the same zoomlevels of NCN, would work awesome for the OCM & fill the gaps :-) I can add 'network=nsn' for National Smooth/(sport) Network. Maybe? So my own rendering would pick it up for the dogsledding/canoes / rolerbladers that can unicyclers on a surf board - with detachable wheels for the Trans Canada Trail users. Cheers, Sam On 5/8/10, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > On 08/05/2010 12:08, Sam Vekemans wrote: >> +101 for rendering it brown, so its different than NCN, RCN, LCN >> I can use it& promote it for the 'Trans Canada Trail' as a 'exact >> definition' as a "leasure route" with 'cycling being 1 activity, but >> not designated for that 1 activity'& mountain biking / road cycling / >> hiking / ATV /canoeing /motercycle /dogsled differences are 'purposly >> blured' >> -the actual activities are signposted. And the ways would very, >> depending on the ground truths. > > Thinking a bit further: > > At present we have three types of rendered cycle route: NCN, RCN and LCN. > > Really, the National Byway is a fourth category: a leisure/touring > route. There are lots of these in OSM at the moment, but generally > tagged as LCN (for example, the Four Castles Cycle Route in > Monmouthshire, or a number around Cheshire). This is pretty > unsatisfactory, as Local Cycle Networks are generally utility commuter > routes. > > So my suggestion would be that we choose a new relation tag for this > type of route. It's not a 'network' as such, so that doesn't work. But > you could perhaps do 'route=leisure' and 'bicycle=designated' or > something, for those who like 'designated'. Then renderers like OCM can > treat this as they wish. > > cheers > Richard > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
On 08/05/2010 12:08, Sam Vekemans wrote: > +101 for rendering it brown, so its different than NCN, RCN, LCN > I can use it& promote it for the 'Trans Canada Trail' as a 'exact > definition' as a "leasure route" with 'cycling being 1 activity, but > not designated for that 1 activity'& mountain biking / road cycling / > hiking / ATV /canoeing /motercycle /dogsled differences are 'purposly > blured' > -the actual activities are signposted. And the ways would very, > depending on the ground truths. Thinking a bit further: At present we have three types of rendered cycle route: NCN, RCN and LCN. Really, the National Byway is a fourth category: a leisure/touring route. There are lots of these in OSM at the moment, but generally tagged as LCN (for example, the Four Castles Cycle Route in Monmouthshire, or a number around Cheshire). This is pretty unsatisfactory, as Local Cycle Networks are generally utility commuter routes. So my suggestion would be that we choose a new relation tag for this type of route. It's not a 'network' as such, so that doesn't work. But you could perhaps do 'route=leisure' and 'bicycle=designated' or something, for those who like 'designated'. Then renderers like OCM can treat this as they wish. cheers Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
+101 for rendering it brown, so its different than NCN, RCN, LCN I can use it & promote it for the 'Trans Canada Trail' as a 'exact definition' as a "leasure route" with 'cycling being 1 activity, but not designated for that 1 activity' & mountain biking / road cycling / hiking / ATV /canoeing /motercycle /dogsled differences are 'purposly blured' -the actual activities are signposted. And the ways would very, depending on the ground truths. Cheers, Sam ps Calling it a 'National Smooth Network' NSN might be going overboard, (but not that far fetched) see www.tctrail.ca pps (National Sport Network) is a little better :-) ppps exact tagging is upto you, 'byway' works too, 'bi-way' is actually a cheep discount store that got bought out by the 'Dollar Store' :) On 5/8/10, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > David Dixon wrote: >> Apart from standardising the tagging, this would also add the Byway to >> opencyclemap. >> In the absence of dissent, I'll update as suggested so shout now if you >> disagree! > > As someone who's mapped lots of both the National Byway and the NCN - > disagree very very strongly. > > The National Byway is not a national cycle network, nor part of the > National Cycle Network, which is laid out to more exacting criteria. It > is a long-distance leisure route. If anything it is more akin to the > sort of route that is often tagged as 'rcn' in OSM (the old county > cycleways, that sort of thing). > > On the particular question of OCM rendering, AIUI Andy isn't opposed to > rendering the National Byway (brown?) from the current tagging, but just > hasn't had the chance yet. But he can answer better than I can. > > I think at this point it is customary to use the phrase "tagging for the > renderer". :) > > cheers > Richard > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] National Byway cycle route
David Dixon wrote: > Apart from standardising the tagging, this would also add the Byway to > opencyclemap. > In the absence of dissent, I'll update as suggested so shout now if you > disagree! As someone who's mapped lots of both the National Byway and the NCN - disagree very very strongly. The National Byway is not a national cycle network, nor part of the National Cycle Network, which is laid out to more exacting criteria. It is a long-distance leisure route. If anything it is more akin to the sort of route that is often tagged as 'rcn' in OSM (the old county cycleways, that sort of thing). On the particular question of OCM rendering, AIUI Andy isn't opposed to rendering the National Byway (brown?) from the current tagging, but just hasn't had the chance yet. But he can answer better than I can. I think at this point it is customary to use the phrase "tagging for the renderer". :) cheers Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
