Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
My take is that Matthijs' heroic stand is a gesture of sacrifice of a small portion of his sanity for the greater good of OSM However, i will totally admit to secretly preparing a kind of endographic study of the social work of the DWG which i'm going to knock some academics out of the sky with. We all have our coping strategies On December 18, 2014 6:14:40 PM GMT, Phil Endecott wrote: >Brian Prangle wrote: >> Matthij's proposal as it now stands is not controversial and >> is merely a typo cleanup. I'm amazed at his patience. > >My assumption is that Matthijs is preparing an academic paper about >OSM in which he will reveal the number of hours work required per >byte of non-controversial database change, with some extrapolations >about the ultimate consequences for the project. I can't imagine >anyone would go through this otherwise. > > >Phil. > > > > >___ >Talk-GB mailing list >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Brian Prangle wrote: Matthij's proposal as it now stands is not controversial and is merely a typo cleanup. I'm amazed at his patience. My assumption is that Matthijs is preparing an academic paper about OSM in which he will reveal the number of hours work required per byte of non-controversial database change, with some extrapolations about the ultimate consequences for the project. I can't imagine anyone would go through this otherwise. Phil. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
We're boiling the ocean here.Matthij's proposal as it now stands is not controversial and is merely a typo cleanup. I'm amazed at his patience. On 18 December 2014 at 13:59, Chris Fleming wrote: > > I really struggled to see how this mechanical edit can do any harm. I > certainly don't see people manually fixing all of these, and frankly there > are better things to do with our time. > > If people are watching locally for changes, they should see them happen > which is quite a good trigger to check the changes and local area, for > other things that need doing. > > Cheers > Chris > > > > On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 13:37 Andy Allan wrote: > >> On 18 December 2014 at 12:18, Jonathan Bennett >> wrote: >> >> > All your mechanical edit does >> > is correct one tiny part of the mapping, and possibly to no great >> effect - >> > it's just the text of the name that's getting corrected under a limited >> set >> > of circumstances. >> >> So let's JFDI then, right? >> >> Thanks, >> Andy >> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
I really struggled to see how this mechanical edit can do any harm. I certainly don't see people manually fixing all of these, and frankly there are better things to do with our time. If people are watching locally for changes, they should see them happen which is quite a good trigger to check the changes and local area, for other things that need doing. Cheers Chris On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 13:37 Andy Allan wrote: > On 18 December 2014 at 12:18, Jonathan Bennett > wrote: > > > All your mechanical edit does > > is correct one tiny part of the mapping, and possibly to no great effect > - > > it's just the text of the name that's getting corrected under a limited > set > > of circumstances. > > So let's JFDI then, right? > > Thanks, > Andy > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18 December 2014 at 12:18, Jonathan Bennett wrote: > All your mechanical edit does > is correct one tiny part of the mapping, and possibly to no great effect - > it's just the text of the name that's getting corrected under a limited set > of circumstances. So let's JFDI then, right? Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18/12/14 12:33, Matthijs Melissen wrote: >> However, if local mappers could somehow be alerted to this small >> > discrepancy, they would probably spot other things in the same area that >> > needed updating at the same time. They might not go looking for them >> > otherwise. >> > >> > Finding small problems like this does have an advantage, but it looks like >> > fixing them mechanically is actually missing the opportunity to improve the >> > map in other ways at the same time. > I have tried contacting local mappers before (in the case of the > betting/bookmaker change), but response has been very limited (less > than 5% of the contacted mappers responded). So this is not really a > solution. > > An alternative would be to create Notes for every misspelling. > However, that would result in the creation of hundreds of new Notes, > and I doubt people would be really happy with that. You are 'mechanically' finding things that you consider to be a problem, but it IS assessing the nature of the problem on a local basis which some of use are objecting to. Posting hundreds of notes would not be acceptable, but simply changing something without a little local review is in my book just as bad. Ed has highlighted the advantage of that local review and I feel that blindly fixing these small elements may actually detract from a better review. If one element is wrong, what else IS wrong in that area. The errors need publishing somehow and in the absence of anything better perhaps the notes process IS the proper mechanism, even if not ideal. I do try and keep those down in my local area. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
> Finding small problems like this does have an advantage, but it looks > like fixing them mechanically is actually missing the opportunity to > improve the map in other ways at the same time. As it happens, the local Sainsbury's that I just updated also made me realise that there is now aerial imagery which shows it since it was first estimated, and I've used that to define the car park, convert the petrol station node to an area, and improve the detail on the building shape: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/27549414 - a slightly larger changeset than just adding an apostrophe (had the building had a shop tag). And as I look to see if the changes have rendered, I realise the Harvester next door is missing (I've eaten there) and I can add that from Bing too. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18 December 2014 at 12:18, Jonathan Bennett wrote: > However, if local mappers could somehow be alerted to this small > discrepancy, they would probably spot other things in the same area that > needed updating at the same time. They might not go looking for them > otherwise. > > Finding small problems like this does have an advantage, but it looks like > fixing them mechanically is actually missing the opportunity to improve the > map in other ways at the same time. I have tried contacting local mappers before (in the case of the betting/bookmaker change), but response has been very limited (less than 5% of the contacted mappers responded). So this is not really a solution. An alternative would be to create Notes for every misspelling. However, that would result in the creation of hundreds of new Notes, and I doubt people would be really happy with that. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18/12/2014 12:05, Ed Loach wrote: Perhaps just posting Overpass links and locals manually making the changes would be better? I think Ed has hit the nail on the head here. All your mechanical edit does is correct one tiny part of the mapping, and possibly to no great effect - it's just the text of the name that's getting corrected under a limited set of circumstances. However, if local mappers could somehow be alerted to this small discrepancy, they would probably spot other things in the same area that needed updating at the same time. They might not go looking for them otherwise. Finding small problems like this does have an advantage, but it looks like fixing them mechanically is actually missing the opportunity to improve the map in other ways at the same time. J. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Perhaps just posting Overpass links and locals manually making the changes
would be better? I compared the Overpass before and after links only to find
that the nearest item on the first link is missing on the second as the
Sainsbury(')s is missing a shop tag. And now it also misses the adjacent petrol
station node as well.
So I'll amend these two manually.
Ed
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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18/12/2014 10:48, Dan S wrote: 2014-12-18 10:39 GMT+00:00 SomeoneElse : On 18/12/2014 02:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: If you oppose this proposal, or if you want to register particular areas or objects for an opt-out, please edit the wiki page under the section 'Oppositions and opt-out'. At the risk of restating the obvious, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy must still be followed, including the bit where it says "You must not go ahead with your plans if there is noticeable opposition". So this particular proposal is not "opt out". If there is "noticeable opposition", then it shouldn't go ahead. Andy, The Mechanical Edit Policy, which you just linked us to, quite clearly says Matthijs must provide "Information on how to "opt out"". It says it in two places. Indeed, but it says it _after_ it says "You must not go ahead with your plans if there is noticeable opposition", so the section in "Execute" is somewhat moot if there is "noticeable opposition". Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
This is only an issue with the demo I generated, not with the proposal itself (in the proposal itself, I explicitly restrict changes to objects with a shop key). Thanks for pointing out this discrepancy. I generated an improved Overpass Turbo link: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/6Aj -- Matthijs On 18 December 2014 at 11:46, Ian Caldwell wrote: > You are not checking that the entities are shops. In my area the Overpass > Turbo finds the following node http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/502411262 a > bus stop, from a NaPTAN import. > > > Ian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
You are not checking that the entities are shops. In my area the Overpass Turbo finds the following node http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/502411262 a bus stop, from a NaPTAN import. Ian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18 Dec 2014 10:40, "SomeoneElse" wrote: > > On 18/12/2014 02:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: >> >> If you oppose this proposal, or if you want to register particular >> areas or objects for an opt-out, please edit the wiki page under the >> section 'Oppositions and opt-out'. > > > At the risk of restating the obvious, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy must still be followed, including the bit where it says "You must not go ahead with your plans if there is noticeable opposition". > > So this particular proposal is not "opt out". If there is "noticeable opposition", then it shouldn't go ahead. That is indeed how I intended the proposal. Mappers have both the opportunity to opt out, and the opportunity to voice their opposition. If you believe this is not clear from the text of the proposal, feel free to suggest an improvement to the text. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
2014-12-18 10:39 GMT+00:00 SomeoneElse : > On 18/12/2014 02:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: >> >> If you oppose this proposal, or if you want to register particular >> areas or objects for an opt-out, please edit the wiki page under the >> section 'Oppositions and opt-out'. > > > At the risk of restating the obvious, > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy must still be > followed, including the bit where it says "You must not go ahead with your > plans if there is noticeable opposition". > > So this particular proposal is not "opt out". If there is "noticeable > opposition", then it shouldn't go ahead. Andy, The Mechanical Edit Policy, which you just linked us to, quite clearly says Matthijs must provide "Information on how to "opt out"". It says it in two places. So I think Matthijs is doing the right thing here - if he did NOT provide opt-out information, he would be violating the policy! Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-3 Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
On 18/12/2014 02:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: If you oppose this proposal, or if you want to register particular areas or objects for an opt-out, please edit the wiki page under the section 'Oppositions and opt-out'. At the risk of restating the obvious, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy must still be followed, including the bit where it says "You must not go ahead with your plans if there is noticeable opposition". So this particular proposal is not "opt out". If there is "noticeable opposition", then it shouldn't go ahead. Best Regards, Andy Townsend ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
