Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
What do you do when the centre tracks are the fast tracks and the outer 2 tracks are the slow stopping lines, like the line near me that runs from London Bridge to East Croydon via Forrest Hill. This is in contrast to some other stations such as those in North London, where you the 2 fast tracks beside each other, and then 2 slow tracks, often with the slow tracks having an island platform at the stations. Should these 2 be mapped differently. I'd like to add the detail of the platforms, and the access to the platforms. Shaun On 5 Jun 2009, at 18:31, Richard Mann wrote: It is a different issue. Generally if there are 4 tracks, 2 will be the fasts and 2 the slows (except on the western when they are mains/ reliefs). Having a pair of lines where virtually nothing stops makes a huge difference to the service pattern. The actual linespeeds can be quite similar, so linespeed isn't sufficient to tell them apart. Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Peter Miller > wrote: On 5 Jun 2009, at 11:23, Richard Mann wrote: Yes but if you do that, make sure that there's a tag used for lines which are "fast", otherwise you won't easily be able to tell which routes have separate tracks for fast and slow trains (maybe that exists already) Individual tracks can of course have different maxspeed tags if they are modelled using different ways. Possibly that is a different issues from fast/slow trains but this is getting outside my area of knowledge. Regards, Peter Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Steve Hill wrote: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Peter Miller wrote: I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely not!). Tracing individual tracks might make sense if people are tracing from photos. Especially true for sidings, etc. I don't really see it as much different to having separate ways for the two sides of a dual carriageway. - Steve xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org sip:st...@nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
It is a different issue. Generally if there are 4 tracks, 2 will be the fasts and 2 the slows (except on the western when they are mains/reliefs). Having a pair of lines where virtually nothing stops makes a huge difference to the service pattern. The actual linespeeds can be quite similar, so linespeed isn't sufficient to tell them apart. Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Peter Miller wrote: > > On 5 Jun 2009, at 11:23, Richard Mann wrote: > > Yes but if you do that, make sure that there's a tag used for lines which > are "fast", otherwise you won't easily be able to tell which routes have > separate tracks for fast and slow trains (maybe that exists already) > > > Individual tracks can of course have different maxspeed tags if they are > modelled using different ways. Possibly that is a different issues from > fast/slow trains but this is getting outside my area of knowledge. > > > > Regards, > > > > > Peter > > > > Richard > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Steve Hill wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Peter Miller wrote: >> >> I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think >>> there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or >>> alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely >>> not!). >>> >> >> Tracing individual tracks might make sense if people are tracing from >> photos. Especially true for sidings, etc. I don't really see it as much >> different to having separate ways for the two sides of a dual carriageway. >> >> - Steve >> xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org >> sip:st...@nexusuk.orghttp://www.nexusuk.org/ >> >> Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence >> >> > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 10:59, Tom Hughes wrote: > Peter Miller wrote: > >> On 5 Jun 2009, at 10:19, Tom Hughes wrote: >>> Incidentally, looking at that just now I see that the relation for >>> that branch has been extended all the way down to Broxbourne >>> station rather than terminating at Broxbourne Junction where it >>> joins the main line and I'm wondering if that is the best thing to >>> do? >> We took the decision to use wikipedia as a the reference for the >> extent of historic lines, so if the wikipedia article for the >> Ipswich to Ely line says that it goes all the way to Ipswich to Ely >> (even though the last section is also the Great Eastern Main Line) >> then that is what we have done. > > This isn't a historic line, it's an existing, active line: > > http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=142019 By historic line we purely mean the historic name for the line. Network Rail has moved to Route numbers and SRS codes for sections of track for obvious reasons and these SRS sections have names, but the wikipedia articles are built around the older names for the lines and that is what we chose to follow if that makes sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertford_East_Branch_Line > As you can see the southern end extends beyond the junction with the > main line (about 1km east of my house...) down to the next station. > Sure, but the wikipedia article says it goes from Broxourne to Herford so we have used that as our source. Again - happy for a decision to tweek this and end at the junction where it joins the main line, but lets be consistent about it. > Somebody has in fact added the old Buntingford Branch line (which > came off the Hertford East Branch) which no longer exists. That does > seem to terminate where it comes off the Hertford East Branch: > > http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=148560 > > In fact it terminates just before the Hertford East Branch, > presumably because whoever put it in didn't know how it used to > cross the Lee Navigation, though the footpath there (which I always > thought was a bit odd) looks like a good bet for the old route. > Maybe I should go out and investigate that sometime... Incidentally there is an wikipedia article for that one as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buntingford_Branch_Line Regards, Peter > > > Tom > > -- > Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) > http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 11:23, Richard Mann wrote: Yes but if you do that, make sure that there's a tag used for lines which are "fast", otherwise you won't easily be able to tell which routes have separate tracks for fast and slow trains (maybe that exists already) Individual tracks can of course have different maxspeed tags if they are modelled using different ways. Possibly that is a different issues from fast/slow trains but this is getting outside my area of knowledge. Regards, Peter Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Steve Hill wrote: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Peter Miller wrote: I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely not!). Tracing individual tracks might make sense if people are tracing from photos. Especially true for sidings, etc. I don't really see it as much different to having separate ways for the two sides of a dual carriageway. - Steve xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org sip:st...@nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
Yes but if you do that, make sure that there's a tag used for lines which are "fast", otherwise you won't easily be able to tell which routes have separate tracks for fast and slow trains (maybe that exists already) Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Steve Hill wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Peter Miller wrote: > > I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think >> there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or >> alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely >> not!). >> > > Tracing individual tracks might make sense if people are tracing from > photos. Especially true for sidings, etc. I don't really see it as much > different to having separate ways for the two sides of a dual carriageway. > > - Steve > xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org > sip:st...@nexusuk.orghttp://www.nexusuk.org/ > > Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence > > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Peter Miller wrote: > I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think > there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or > alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely > not!). Tracing individual tracks might make sense if people are tracing from photos. Especially true for sidings, etc. I don't really see it as much different to having separate ways for the two sides of a dual carriageway. - Steve xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org sip:st...@nexusuk.org http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
Peter Miller wrote: > On 5 Jun 2009, at 10:19, Tom Hughes wrote: > >> Incidentally, looking at that just now I see that the relation for >> that branch has been extended all the way down to Broxbourne station >> rather than terminating at Broxbourne Junction where it joins the main >> line and I'm wondering if that is the best thing to do? > > We took the decision to use wikipedia as a the reference for the extent > of historic lines, so if the wikipedia article for the Ipswich to Ely > line says that it goes all the way to Ipswich to Ely (even though the > last section is also the Great Eastern Main Line) then that is what we > have done. This isn't a historic line, it's an existing, active line: http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=142019 As you can see the southern end extends beyond the junction with the main line (about 1km east of my house...) down to the next station. Somebody has in fact added the old Buntingford Branch line (which came off the Hertford East Branch) which no longer exists. That does seem to terminate where it comes off the Hertford East Branch: http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=148560 In fact it terminates just before the Hertford East Branch, presumably because whoever put it in didn't know how it used to cross the Lee Navigation, though the footpath there (which I always thought was a bit odd) looks like a good bet for the old route. Maybe I should go out and investigate that sometime... Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 10:49, Richard Mann wrote: I'd be reluctant to see separate ways for Circle / H&C / Met. This is another example where the renderers have got to crack how to draw asymmetrical lines (ie one colour on the left of the line, another on the right). I am certainly not proposing separate ways for separate lines. I think there should either be one way for a bunch of parallel tracks or alternatively one way per track if people are getting nerdy (surely not!). I was just proposing that line names should be defined in the relations and not on the ways - the ways should only be named if the name is associated with that piece of track rather than the line that runs on it. I agree that there is an interesting job for renderers that want to render maps where multiple lines share a section of track and it will be great when someone rises to the challenge. Possibly it is a good compromise until then for ways to have names in addition to the relations to work with current renders. Regards, Peter Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Peter Childs wrote: 2009/6/4 Peter Miller : > Makes sense. > > Another log... What about trains? Network Rail use mph, so I would > suggest we do the same. > Do they? I've seen quite a few Rail Signs that seam to be in km/h. Not being a train driver I'm not always sure. I think that it might be that National Rail use mph and Euro Tunnel use kph. I think we might have to find a train expert to check. On a simular subject are there ways of Tagging 3rd Rail vs Overhead Power etc Oh and London Bridge is a mess, on 5 or 6 Layers. Needs major work, but is very difficult Is there a way of tagging platforms with where the trains go. eg Platform 3 - Maidstone and Paddock Wood for Strood. Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
All Network Rail speed restrictions are in mph, except a handful (very distinctive) ones that are in both mph and kph (the units for the kph speed are on the sign) near the mouth of the Channel Tunnel (essentially the route between there and the freight yards). I don't believe there are any speed restrictions on the high speed line (it's all done by displays in the train cabs). It's a bit hard to survey them at 300kph. I'd be reluctant to see separate ways for Circle / H&C / Met. This is another example where the renderers have got to crack how to draw asymmetrical lines (ie one colour on the left of the line, another on the right). Richard On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Peter Childs wrote: > 2009/6/4 Peter Miller : > > Makes sense. > > > > Another log... What about trains? Network Rail use mph, so I would > > suggest we do the same. > > > > Do they? I've seen quite a few Rail Signs that seam to be in km/h. Not > being a train driver I'm not always sure. I think that it might be > that National Rail use mph and Euro Tunnel use kph. I think we might > have to find a train expert to check. > > On a simular subject are there ways of Tagging 3rd Rail vs Overhead Power > etc > > Oh and London Bridge is a mess, on 5 or 6 Layers. Needs major work, > but is very difficult Is there a way of tagging platforms with > where the trains go. eg Platform 3 - Maidstone and Paddock Wood for > Strood. > > Peter. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 10:19, Tom Hughes wrote: > Peter Miller wrote: > >> Fyi, Joss (who works for ITO) is in the process of preparing a >> new OSM railway wiki page in his user area which lists lines and >> gives relations where they are available. >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:JossSmithson/UK_railways > > Joss's work had been noticed, mainly because there was some question > over where some of the data had come from. In the end we decided it > had probably from Wikipedia, although that does of course leave open > the question of how Wikipedia knows that the Hertford East Branch > line is SRS 05.03 ;-) > Sure. Possibly this is something we should pick up on in talk-legal at some point and proper get a view from a proper lawyer. It is a bit of an anomaly that Wikipieda can cite sources and include facts from other places and that OSM can (probably) include information from Wikipedia but probably not (according to general opinion) cite non- wikipedia sources. We have taken the view that citing Wikipedia seems to be accepted so that it what we are doing. You may also notice that we are also putting significant effort into many transport related articles in Wikipedia (both rail and road) particularly for the East of England and intend to be providing images for use in those articles soon, so it is good if they match up. > Incidentally, looking at that just now I see that the relation for > that branch has been extended all the way down to Broxbourne station > rather than terminating at Broxbourne Junction where it joins the > main line and I'm wondering if that is the best thing to do? We took the decision to use wikipedia as a the reference for the extent of historic lines, so if the wikipedia article for the Ipswich to Ely line says that it goes all the way to Ipswich to Ely (even though the last section is also the Great Eastern Main Line) then that is what we have done. Happy for people to adjust it if we come to a general view that this is incorrect, but we are intending to produce pretty maps to go into those wikipedia article from OSM relations in due course and it is therefore convenient if the information matches. Regards, Peter > > > Tom > > -- > Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) > http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
Peter Miller wrote: > Fyi, Joss (who works for ITO) is in the process of preparing a new > OSM railway wiki page in his user area which lists lines and gives > relations where they are available. > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:JossSmithson/UK_railways Joss's work had been noticed, mainly because there was some question over where some of the data had come from. In the end we decided it had probably from Wikipedia, although that does of course leave open the question of how Wikipedia knows that the Hertford East Branch line is SRS 05.03 ;-) Incidentally, looking at that just now I see that the relation for that branch has been extended all the way down to Broxbourne station rather than terminating at Broxbourne Junction where it joins the main line and I'm wondering if that is the best thing to do? Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 09:35, Peter Miller wrote: > > On 5 Jun 2009, at 09:06, Peter Childs wrote: > >> And also I think the railway lines in london need relations for > each line. Currently the names of lines are encoded in the ways which > just doesn't work. One ends up with ways named as 'Circle, Hammersmith > and City, and Metropolitan line' > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4453689 > > Would any object if we were to remove the names from the ways and at > the same time create ways for each line? Fyi, at ITO we have been > doing some work on relationships for railway line which seems to be > very effective. Here is an example: > http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=138843 > > Possibly we could do something similar for the underground > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tube_Network_Map I take it all back - not sure how I missed the underground line related relations. Looks like they just need to be added the wiki. Actually - I think there should be a wiki page for the London Underground - there is one for the stations by the wiki seems in a bit of a mess in relation to LU. > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter > > > >> >> >> Peter. > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 09:06, Peter Childs wrote: > 2009/6/4 Peter Miller : >> Makes sense. >> >> Another log... What about trains? Network Rail use mph, so I would >> suggest we do the same. >> > > Do they? I've seen quite a few Rail Signs that seam to be in km/h. Not > being a train driver I'm not always sure. I think that it might be > that National Rail use mph and Euro Tunnel use kph. I think we might > have to find a train expert to check. > The network rail documentation, as linked from here talks about mph, but you might well be right about the channel tunnel link http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4449.aspx > On a simular subject are there ways of Tagging 3rd Rail vs Overhead > Power etc > You should be following talk-transit where we are discussion such ideas at present. We haven't touched on Overhead Power yet, but there is a proposal to rationalise and extend pt tagging at present that could include it:- http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit > Oh and London Bridge is a mess, on 5 or 6 Layers. Needs major work, > but is very difficult Is there a way of tagging platforms with > where the trains go. eg Platform 3 - Maidstone and Paddock Wood for > Strood. Lots of current discussion about tagging of complex stations on talk- transit. And also I think the railway lines in london need relations for each line. Currently the names of lines are encoded in the ways which just doesn't work. One ends up with ways named as 'Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan line' http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4453689 Would any object if we were to remove the names from the ways and at the same time create ways for each line? Fyi, at ITO we have been doing some work on relationships for railway line which seems to be very effective. Here is an example: http://osm.cdauth.de/route-manager/relation.php?id=138843 Possibly we could do something similar for the underground http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tube_Network_Map Fyi, Joss (who works for ITO) is in the process of preparing a new OSM railway wiki page in his user area which lists lines and gives relations where they are available. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:JossSmithson/UK_railways Regards, Peter > > > Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Speed Limit - Trains Was: Re: maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On 5 Jun 2009, at 09:06, Peter Childs wrote: > On a simular subject are there ways of Tagging 3rd Rail vs Overhead > Power etc http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:electrified > > Oh and London Bridge is a mess, on 5 or 6 Layers. Needs major work, > but is very difficult Is there a way of tagging platforms with > where the trains go. eg Platform 3 - Maidstone and Paddock Wood for > Strood. railway=platform on a way or area Platforms change too frequently at London Bridge, thus it'd be pointless to mark the destination. It would be better putting relations in for each of the train routes. Shaun ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
