Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 16 September 2013 16:14, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 September 2013 14:18, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com wrote: If there is no license on their website regarding the information, then shouldn't it be considered public domain? Err, no. That's not how the law works - either on copyright or on database rights. As well as full copyright restrictions being the default position, it is not possible to get copyright material into the pubic domain early in the UK, or Europe in general. (Even in the US, there is some doubt as to whether anyone but the government to do so, and even whether government produced material is public domain outside the USA.) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 16 September 2013 19:18, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 16/09/2013 17:35, Adam Hoyle wrote: On 16 Sep 2013, at 16:14, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: Almost all retail sites will claim blanket copyright in every page of their websites. Just to take one at random, I went to http://www.boots.com/ . See the bottom of the page, and you'll see the copyright statement. It would be difficult to find any commercial or large business that doesn't. In this case, Asda do. Furthermore, any maps or use of postcode location they use may also be copyright to someone else, like Royal Mail. Asda certainly look as though they must have used postcode centres, as their marker is at the back of the site and so far off the actual store that Bing's icon for store is outside the frame! However, basic postcode centre locations are part of the OS OpenData releases. What is still kept under lock and key by the Post Office is the allocation of street addresses to postcodes and the, detailed, Walksort(TM) level codes used in the bar codes on mail from institutions. Providing an interface to add a business by postcode might actually be a useful way of getting a first cut set of data without risking an inexperienced marketing person using copyright mapping data. copyright to do that, as long as they understand the implications, that the specific information referred would be released under the ODbL. I'd have thought most stores would be only too glad for their locations to be published, but because of the blanket copyright claimed, they'd each need to be asked. The best approach would be to encourage them to submit the information directly to OSM, so that they go through the standard OSM licence grant process. The problem may be in getting a share out o what may be a very small marketing budget for maintaining the store locator. Of course, the benefit to them may be that they get detailed mapping of the correct geometry of their site out of OSM, at the slight risk of occasional vandalism and good intentions gone wrong. OSM gets the risk that they may not really understand the licence, although I fear that the latest generation of mappers may have the same problem. The caveat is that they may not be in a position to give you permission if the data is itself tied up in copyright to someone else - for example if it is derived using the Royal Mail postcode to location database. Depending who As noted above, getting postcodes rather than full geo-refs would reduce the risk of third party copyright breaches. In the Asda case, the OSM mapping doesn't seem to have used the store locator mapping. The kind of stores we're talking about are in sizeable places, and the numbers aren't huge, so doing it on foot is surely perfectly do-able and Unfortunately, OSM is becoming an armchair exercise. I don't know if the existing car park, at Asda, was armchair mapping, but in some areas, any place where two or more cars gather together gets mapped as a car park, without any access restrictions. quicker and easier than approaching every chain for a complicated permission which they may themselves get wrong. Doing it on the ground means you get them all, systematically, in one place too irrespective of size or whether they have an online branch finder. You also get the right information, not what the marketing department thought they knew. I recently mapped a PFI for NHA health centre which had both a sketch map and one of the standard online maps identifying a building on the wrong side of the service road as the centre (it is hosted within a sport centre). ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 17 September 2013 08:38, OpenStreetmap HADW osmh...@gmail.com wrote: However, basic postcode centre locations are part of the OS OpenData releases. Unfortunately, CodePoint Open is the one dataset in the OS OpenData collection that hasn't been cleared for use in OSM. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-July/015028.html Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
Just a general point about shops. There is a perfectly good OPEN data source containing address ( postcode centroid as lat/lon) available for all food outlets covering most UK local authorities. This is the Food Standards Agency's Food Hygiene Rating Schemehttp://ratings.food.gov.uk/open-data/en-GB. I don't in general use it for armchair mapping (the exceptions being places I used to know well, where I have used FHRS to verify that a pub/restaurant/cafe is still in business), but it is very powerful for a) finding places to survey; and b) adding address data. It is certainly likely to cover major chains such as : Tesco, Morrison, Sainsbury's, Waitrose, Asda, Boots, Superdrug, W.H. Smith. Like most data sources it's not perfect: I've encountered a few omissions (including the banqueting hall mentioned in an earlier thread) as well as out-of-date information. License info on the FHRS site is somewhat opaque, but Open Data gov provides this searchhttp://data.gov.uk/data/search?license_id-is-ogl=trueq=food+hygiene . So there is no need to even think about using Store Locator stuff on proprietary websites. Jerry On 17 September 2013 08:38, OpenStreetmap HADW osmh...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 September 2013 19:18, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 16/09/2013 17:35, Adam Hoyle wrote: On 16 Sep 2013, at 16:14, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: Almost all retail sites will claim blanket copyright in every page of their websites. Just to take one at random, I went to http://www.boots.com/ . See the bottom of the page, and you'll see the copyright statement. It would be difficult to find any commercial or large business that doesn't. In this case, Asda do. Furthermore, any maps or use of postcode location they use may also be copyright to someone else, like Royal Mail. Asda certainly look as though they must have used postcode centres, as their marker is at the back of the site and so far off the actual store that Bing's icon for store is outside the frame! However, basic postcode centre locations are part of the OS OpenData releases. What is still kept under lock and key by the Post Office is the allocation of street addresses to postcodes and the, detailed, Walksort(TM) level codes used in the bar codes on mail from institutions. Providing an interface to add a business by postcode might actually be a useful way of getting a first cut set of data without risking an inexperienced marketing person using copyright mapping data. copyright to do that, as long as they understand the implications, that the specific information referred would be released under the ODbL. I'd have thought most stores would be only too glad for their locations to be published, but because of the blanket copyright claimed, they'd each need to be asked. The best approach would be to encourage them to submit the information directly to OSM, so that they go through the standard OSM licence grant process. The problem may be in getting a share out o what may be a very small marketing budget for maintaining the store locator. Of course, the benefit to them may be that they get detailed mapping of the correct geometry of their site out of OSM, at the slight risk of occasional vandalism and good intentions gone wrong. OSM gets the risk that they may not really understand the licence, although I fear that the latest generation of mappers may have the same problem. The caveat is that they may not be in a position to give you permission if the data is itself tied up in copyright to someone else - for example if it is derived using the Royal Mail postcode to location database. Depending who As noted above, getting postcodes rather than full geo-refs would reduce the risk of third party copyright breaches. In the Asda case, the OSM mapping doesn't seem to have used the store locator mapping. The kind of stores we're talking about are in sizeable places, and the numbers aren't huge, so doing it on foot is surely perfectly do-able and Unfortunately, OSM is becoming an armchair exercise. I don't know if the existing car park, at Asda, was armchair mapping, but in some areas, any place where two or more cars gather together gets mapped as a car park, without any access restrictions. quicker and easier than approaching every chain for a complicated permission which they may themselves get wrong. Doing it on the ground means you get them all, systematically, in one place too irrespective of size or whether they have an online branch finder. You also get the right information, not what the marketing department thought they knew. I recently mapped a PFI for NHA health centre which had both a sketch map and one of the standard online maps identifying a building on the wrong side of the service road as the centre (it is hosted within a sport centre). ___ Talk-GB mailing list
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 17 September 2013 09:01, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote: s. Unfortunately, CodePoint Open is the one dataset in the OS OpenData collection that hasn't been cleared for use in OSM. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-July/015028.html Fortunately I haven't used it, although I thought I'd seem some postcode centroids actually on the map. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 17 September 2013 09:15, SK53 sk53@gmail.com wrote: Just a general point about shops. There is a perfectly good OPEN data source containing address ( postcode centroid as lat/lon) available for all food outlets covering most UK local authorities. Aren't the postcode centroids subject to the Post Office rights? This is the Food Standards Agency's Food Hygiene Rating Scheme. I don't in general use it for armchair mapping (the exceptions being places I used to know well, where I have used FHRS to verify that a pub/restaurant/cafe is still in business), but it is very powerful for a) finding places to survey; and b) adding address data. It is certainly likely to cover major chains such as : Tesco, Morrison, Sainsbury's, Waitrose, Asda, Boots, Superdrug, W.H. Smith. Interestingly the local Sainsbury's and Asda hypermarkets are missing (as seem to be Tesco and Morrisons)! (On the other hand church halls and small businesses which are not basically food related did come up.) Many of the local/express variants of the big ones do turn up (I wonder if these are actually franchises). Like most data sources it's not perfect: I've encountered a few omissions (including the banqueting hall mentioned in an earlier thread) as well as out-of-date information. There seems to be quite a high omission and error rate in my borough. From the confusion an initial report produced, I'm not sure the council is actually set up to cope with intelligence about food businesses not produced by the businesses themselves, except, possibly if there is a complaint. On the other hand, in the case of the store locator mapper, they missed an existing node that had an FHRS address that is more plausible than the one they hads (might be an Id problem - they had 15, the original one had 1-5; maybe Id wants pure numbers), and one of their that I corrected came up with a more detailed address in FHRS. License info on the FHRS site is somewhat opaque, but Open Data gov provides this search. So there is no need to even think about using Store Locator stuff on proprietary websites. Unfortunately, the new breed of mappers probably know about locators, but not about FHRS, and they are probably not that aware of how all pervasive copyright is, and how damaging infringements could be. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
Hi OpenStreetmap HADW, I've worked with a number of retailers on digital projects, usually involving some-kind of store locator and I'm certain they would encourage anything that points more customers to their stores, especially if it requires no additional resources / cost on their side. If there is no license on their website regarding the information, then shouldn't it be considered public domain? Worth noting, often the data is held in their systems as a post code, and is likely to have been converted at some point to the necessary lat/lon - this process might not be as perfect as OSM would like, so some common sense should be used to interpret this data. Hope that helps, Adam On 15 Sep 2013, at 23:27, OpenStreetmap HADW osmh...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 September 2013 22:24, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 15/09/2013 21:41, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: I'm pretty sure that store locators pages on chain store web sites are not safe sources, but can someone confirm this. What do mean by safe? Inaccurate? Unlawful? Likely to be an infringement of the operator's copyrights (a store locator will have database rights, like a map), and if a map had actually been used from the site, which seems unlikely in this case, of the rights in the map (store locators often have rather better maps than the Bing one used in this case). If it is OK to use store locators, I can see people exporting all the big name store locators into the map. There's nothing really wrong with the closed polygon that can't be fixed by These are side issues. The issue I was consulting on here was the copyright one. removing the building tag. The mapper's clearly used the Bing aerial background imagery to trace the area used Asda's website for other data. Seeing the car park originates from '09, I'm going to guess the supermarket polygon was expanded from a POI. I can't think of any data being more I can't remember. However the current mapper has left at least two POIs behind when they have mapped buildings, so I have a feeling it wasn't mapped at all. Also, I seem to remember thinking about mapping this myself, but holding back because I would have had to use the weak source, local_knowledge, to identify it as Asda, so I would have wanted to re-visit it on the ground, first. The reasons I didn't just remove building=yes were: - I felt uncomfortable about building on something that might have come from a copyright map (I was half expecting a usable map of the site on Asda's web site); - the site outline is wrong. It takes in a health centre and community centre and some blocks of flats that are not part of the Asda site - I felt getting that right was something for another day; - getting the mapper to fix it would be more likely to avoid the same mistake being made again, and get them to fix their other instances - I know of at least one other with the building tag on a site Incidentally, the building tag may be an Id issue. JOSM doesn't set building by default on shops. accurate than the operator's web page. I'm not sure why you so concerned about this instance. Nothing in OSM is completely accurate. If you know ways to improve the data, do so. However, the accuracy is a side issue, that can be handled offline. My concern is about the principle of whether store locators are a special case of a database that is exempt from the normal rule about not importing databases, even piecemeal. If they are, I would expect a source code of something like store_locator, rather than the full URL, or, if the full URL for that store were visible on geographic site, simply website. (In this case, I suspect the real sources were survey (by eye, not GPS), Bing, and then only using the web site for phone numbers, website and address. Although they didn't have opening hours at all, those should have been available on site.) (What made me look at it was that it was local and had no changeset comment.) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 16 September 2013 14:18, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com wrote: If there is no license on their website regarding the information, then shouldn't it be considered public domain? Err, no. That's not how the law works - either on copyright or on database rights. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 16 Sep 2013, at 16:14, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 September 2013 14:18, Adam Hoyle adam.li...@dotankstudios.com wrote: If there is no license on their website regarding the information, then shouldn't it be considered public domain? Err, no. That's not how the law works - either on copyright or on database rights. Lol, good point - perhaps I should ask if any of them can attribute a license to the locations on their sites - what would be the best license for them to use? Creative Commons, or something else? Any good URLs to share would be handy to make a stronger case - if they don't just look at me blankly that is. Adam ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 16/09/2013 17:35, Adam Hoyle wrote: On 16 Sep 2013, at 16:14, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: Err, no. That's not how the law works - either on copyright or on database rights. Lol, good point - perhaps I should ask if any of them can attribute a license to the locations on their sites - what would be the best license for them to use? Creative Commons, or something else? Any good URLs to share would be handy to make a stronger case - if they don't just look at me blankly that is. Almost all retail sites will claim blanket copyright in every page of their websites. Just to take one at random, I went to http://www.boots.com/ . See the bottom of the page, and you'll see the copyright statement. Furthermore, any maps or use of postcode location they use may also be copyright to someone else, like Royal Mail. But just because something is copyright doesn't mean they can't give you permission to use it for certain purposes. They don't need to change their copyright to do that, as long as they understand the implications, that the specific information referred would be released under the ODbL. I'd have thought most stores would be only too glad for their locations to be published, but because of the blanket copyright claimed, they'd each need to be asked. The caveat is that they may not be in a position to give you permission if the data is itself tied up in copyright to someone else - for example if it is derived using the Royal Mail postcode to location database. Depending who you ask, they may not realise this is the case. But if you read off the location of a store from their branch finder from a map, you can be sure that's not allowed and they can't themselves give you permission because it doesn't belong to them. And if it's not a map, but say the postal address, how are you then going to obtain the location to mark it on a map? The kind of stores we're talking about are in sizeable places, and the numbers aren't huge, so doing it on foot is surely perfectly do-able and quicker and easier than approaching every chain for a complicated permission which they may themselves get wrong. Doing it on the ground means you get them all, systematically, in one place too irrespective of size or whether they have an online branch finder. David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 15/09/2013 21:41, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: I'm pretty sure that store locators pages on chain store web sites are not safe sources, but can someone confirm this. What do mean by safe? Inaccurate? Unlawful? There's nothing really wrong with the closed polygon that can't be fixed by removing the building tag. The mapper's clearly used the Bing aerial background imagery to trace the area used Asda's website for other data. Seeing the car park originates from '09, I'm going to guess the supermarket polygon was expanded from a POI. I can't think of any data being more accurate than the operator's web page. I'm not sure why you so concerned about this instance. Nothing in OSM is completely accurate. If you know ways to improve the data, do so. Dave F ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Using store locator as source
On 15 September 2013 22:24, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 15/09/2013 21:41, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote: I'm pretty sure that store locators pages on chain store web sites are not safe sources, but can someone confirm this. What do mean by safe? Inaccurate? Unlawful? Likely to be an infringement of the operator's copyrights (a store locator will have database rights, like a map), and if a map had actually been used from the site, which seems unlikely in this case, of the rights in the map (store locators often have rather better maps than the Bing one used in this case). If it is OK to use store locators, I can see people exporting all the big name store locators into the map. There's nothing really wrong with the closed polygon that can't be fixed by These are side issues. The issue I was consulting on here was the copyright one. removing the building tag. The mapper's clearly used the Bing aerial background imagery to trace the area used Asda's website for other data. Seeing the car park originates from '09, I'm going to guess the supermarket polygon was expanded from a POI. I can't think of any data being more I can't remember. However the current mapper has left at least two POIs behind when they have mapped buildings, so I have a feeling it wasn't mapped at all. Also, I seem to remember thinking about mapping this myself, but holding back because I would have had to use the weak source, local_knowledge, to identify it as Asda, so I would have wanted to re-visit it on the ground, first. The reasons I didn't just remove building=yes were: - I felt uncomfortable about building on something that might have come from a copyright map (I was half expecting a usable map of the site on Asda's web site); - the site outline is wrong. It takes in a health centre and community centre and some blocks of flats that are not part of the Asda site - I felt getting that right was something for another day; - getting the mapper to fix it would be more likely to avoid the same mistake being made again, and get them to fix their other instances - I know of at least one other with the building tag on a site Incidentally, the building tag may be an Id issue. JOSM doesn't set building by default on shops. accurate than the operator's web page. I'm not sure why you so concerned about this instance. Nothing in OSM is completely accurate. If you know ways to improve the data, do so. However, the accuracy is a side issue, that can be handled offline. My concern is about the principle of whether store locators are a special case of a database that is exempt from the normal rule about not importing databases, even piecemeal. If they are, I would expect a source code of something like store_locator, rather than the full URL, or, if the full URL for that store were visible on geographic site, simply website. (In this case, I suspect the real sources were survey (by eye, not GPS), Bing, and then only using the web site for phone numbers, website and address. Although they didn't have opening hours at all, those should have been available on site.) (What made me look at it was that it was local and had no changeset comment.) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
