Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
2017-03-24 11:31 GMT+00:00 Andy Mabbett : > On 24 March 2017 at 00:48, Andy Townsend wrote: > >> On 19/03/2017 14:57, Andy Mabbett wrote: >>> >>> "On 19 March 2017 at 13:13, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote: On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is > outrageous. No, he was sent this message: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271 >>> >>> Which opens with the words "brianboru blocked by SomeoneElse" > > [Snip long explanation confirming that Brian was indeed blocked] Andy M, you're being pedantic. The "block" mechanism was used to send a message to him, with no blocking effect in practice. It's clear as day. Dan ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Harry, and everyone else, I'm sure Brian will get back to everyone on all of this when he's back in circulation. He's not been around since these issues were raised. There is obviously a lot to digest and clearly there are some specific points to take on board so I'm sure when he's had time to go through everything we can move on. Cheers and happy mapping. Andy -Original Message- From: Harry Wood [mailto:m...@harrywood.co.uk] Sent: 24 March 2017 15:18 To: Andy Townsend; Andy Mabbett Cc: talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress I've created a wiki page specifically about the tree data import. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data It would be better if somebody involved in running the import, would do this (per the Import Guidelines), but I've drawn together various info I could find from Brian's blog posts, and from poking at the data myself. I didn't poke at the origin data. We could document the complete list of fields they provide. Also is the whole data set is now imported? I count ~43000 nodes, but Brian's blog mentions 76,000 trees. How many changesets was that? To what extent has the data now been modified after import? What is 'usrn'? Harry Andy Townsend wrote: > If it exists, an actual link would be really useful here. I'm aware > of > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2017-Ma > rch/002127.html but that is by no means a "well-defined and > transparent plan". ... > It'd be great to be able to move forward here - to identify the parts > of the process that were missed, to have a discussion about tags > (including answering e.g. Will's questions from > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-March/020058.ht > ml ). The replies to this thread make it pretty clear that the West > Midlands group has some work to do to persuade the majority of the UK > OSM community that the approach taken so far is a good one. ___ Talk-GB mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
I've created a wiki page specifically about the tree data import. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Birmingham_City_Council_trees_data It would be better if somebody involved in running the import, would do this (per the Import Guidelines), but I've drawn together various info I could find from Brian's blog posts, and from poking at the data myself. I didn't poke at the origin data. We could document the complete list of fields they provide. Also is the whole data set is now imported? I count ~43000 nodes, but Brian's blog mentions 76,000 trees. How many changesets was that? To what extent has the data now been modified after import? What is 'usrn'? Harry Andy Townsend wrote: > If it exists, an actual link would be really useful here. I'm aware of > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2017-March/002127.html > > but that is by no means a "well-defined and transparent plan". ... > It'd be great to be able to move forward here - to identify the parts of > the process that were missed, to have a discussion about tags (including > answering e.g. Will's questions from > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-March/020058.html > ). The replies to this thread make it pretty clear that the West > Midlands group has some work to do to persuade the majority of the UK > OSM community that the approach taken so far is a good one. ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 20 March 2017 at 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote: > I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't > know about them. I have emails from Brian discussing imports as far back as 2009. I find it unlikely that with 8 years of experience he could be completely unaware of the import guidelines. > Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a > worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have > time to think with a fresh mind. I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already". Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
2017-03-20 12:17 GMT+00:00 Andy Allan : > On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't >> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane >> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a >> locally supported project. > > We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and > battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have > chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could > have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever > you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been > reached. > > However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things > you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of > our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply > saddened by the attitude. > > Thanks, > Andy I'm nervous of joining this painful thread, in which so many people have said things I object to - but I'm concerned. So I'll try to be minimalist: I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and Richard Fairhurst. Best Dan ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't > see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane > 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a > locally supported project. We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been reached. However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply saddened by the attitude. Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Hi Andy, Sure. Might have to give us a few days though before we come back to you. Can you also look at the import guidelines as it feels very heavy handed (almost police state) currently? I appreciate this is a big ask (I help SotM WG and understand the pressure WGs can be under) but I wonder whether having a more supportive process would be better and result in less work for the DWG in the long run. For example we could have a place that welcomes people who have third party data. It would guide them through the process of validating the licence and the data attributes (e.g. upload a sample for a crack team of OSM experienced members to review the data and propose sensible tags). This would be a much nicer experience than the current interrogation approach. It would also prevent the filibuster type responses you get via unstructured email. Best regards, *Rob* On 20 March 2017 at 22:39, Andy Townsend wrote: > On 20/03/2017 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote: > >> >> Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in >> a worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we >> have time to think with a fresh mind. >> > > Thanks Rob. Looking forward from here, would it be possible to document > where we are with the "trees" import (i.e. what's been decided so far - was > it "yes we'll import it, with these tags" or "yes we'll import it, and > we'll sort out the tagging later" or something else?) and also if possible > fill in some of the other gaps (e.g. how to handle changes from the source > dataset in the future)? > > Best Regards, > > Andy > > > > ___ > Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list > Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands > ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
On 20/03/2017 12:34, Rob Nickerson wrote: Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have time to think with a fresh mind. Thanks Rob. Looking forward from here, would it be possible to document where we are with the "trees" import (i.e. what's been decided so far - was it "yes we'll import it, with these tags" or "yes we'll import it, and we'll sort out the tagging later" or something else?) and also if possible fill in some of the other gaps (e.g. how to handle changes from the source dataset in the future)? Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] Import Progress
Hi Andy, I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't know about them. I'm worn out from many years trying to discuss improvements but getting the equivalent of a parliamentary filibuster. I personally think best way to solve this is to allow local communities (those that are well established) to have greater power to decide themselves. With a loose set of governing _guidelines_ (not prescriptive rules). This came across too negatively yesterday, for which I'm sorry. Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have time to think with a fresh mind. Rob On 20 Mar 2017 12:17 p.m., "Andy Allan" wrote: On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't > see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane > 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a > locally supported project. We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been reached. However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply saddened by the attitude. Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands