Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Raths / ringforts

[Donal Hunt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort

In Irish language  sources
they are known by a number of names: *ráth* (anglicised *rath*), *lios*
 (anglicised *lis*; cognate with Cornish
 *lis*),[2]
 *caiseal*
 (anglicised *cashel*), *cathair* (anglicised *caher* or *cahir*; cognate
with Welsh  *caer*, Cornish
and Breton  *ker*) and *dún*
 (anglicised *dun* or *doon*; cognate with Welsh and Cornish *din*).[3]
 The *ráth* and
*lios* was an earthen ringfort; the *ráth* being the enclosing bank and the
*lios* being the open space within.[4]
 The
*caiseal* and *cathair* was a stone ringfort.[3]
 The term *dún* was
usually used for any stronghold of importance, which may or may not be
ring-shaped.[3] 

In Ireland, over 40,000 sites have been identified as ringforts and it is
thought that at least 50,000 ringforts existed on the island.[5]
 They
are common throughout the country, with a mean density of just over one
ringfort within any area of 2 km2 (0.8 sq mi). It is likely that many have
been destroyed by farming and urbanisation. However, many hitherto unknown
ringforts have been found thanks to early Ordnance Survey
 maps, aerial photography
, and the archaeological
work that has accompanied road-building.

Based on the above definitions, nodes should tagged with ring_fort but
detailed mapping could use ráth and lios. I assume a relation tagged with
ringfort would be appropriate for locations that have the ráth and lios
mapped.


Thoughts?


Donal


p.s. I have no other knowledge / opinion other that want I've read above. I
do think they are cool and worth mapping. 50,000 is a lot of work!!!

On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 17:37, moltonel 3x Combo  wrote:

> On 05/09/2018, Colm Moore  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fortification%20type=ringfort?uselang=en-GB
> >
> >
> > Was someone running a project on mapping / tidying-up raths / ringforts?
> I
> > notice many are mapped in Cork and Kilkenny, but few elsewhere.
>
> User b-unicycling has added most of the Kilkenny ringforts (from some
> external source, I can't recall exactly but I had checked with her
> that it was ODBL-compatible) and I then fixed the tagging and reviewed
> a few using Bing and GSGS.
>
> See https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52885942
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55717926
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55718276
>
> > I haven't come across many of these until the last few weeks. In that
> time,
> > I seem to have been tagging them incorrectly.
> >
> > Can I check the correct tagging is:
> > historic=archaeological_site
> > site_type=fortification
> > fortification_type=ringfort ?
>
> Yes, that's what I've been going for after looking at taginfo and the
> wiki, but see discussion below.
>
> > I checked http://stat.latlon.org/ie/latest/ for the word "fort", (I
> didn't
> > check for name~fort or description~fort) and there are many tagging
> > variations (not all of these will be ringforts).
> >
> > archaeological_site=earthworks
> > archaeological_site=fort
> > archaeological_site=ring_fort
> > archaeological_site=ringfort
> > castle_type=fortification
> > castle_type=fortress
> > earthworks=rath
> > earthworks=ringfort
> > earthworks=ringfort (rath)
> > fortification=ring_ditch
> > fortification_type=hill_fort
> > fortification_type=hillfort
> > fortification_type=ringfort
> > historic=fort
> > historic=fortification
> > historic=hillfort
> > historic=ring fort
> > historic=ring_fort
> > inscription=Ring fort
> > military=fort
> > note=Ancient fort
> > note=Ancient ring fort
> > note=Fawney (fainne) means ring, maybe the site of a ringfort? Was also
> > slang to kiss the King/Lords ring. Very interesting as the road is called
> > the Royal Oak
> > note=Fort
> > note=Not sure if these are Barrows or rath, or what the difference is!
> Ring
> > fort
> > note=Not sure if these are Barrows or raths, or what the difference is!
> Ring
> > fort
> > note=Ring Fort?
> > note=Round Fort?
> > note=ring fort
> > note=ringfort
> > ruins=fort
> > ruins=ringfort
> > site_type=earthwork
> > site_type=earthworks
> > site_type=enclosure
> > site_type=fortification
> > site_type=ring fort
> > site_type=ringfort
> > site_type=ringfort;megalith
> > type=ringfort
> > wikipedia=en:Ringfort
> > wikipedia_1=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort
>
> I last looked a

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Raths / ringforts

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 05/09/2018, Colm Moore  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fortification%20type=ringfort?uselang=en-GB
>
>
> Was someone running a project on mapping / tidying-up raths / ringforts? I
> notice many are mapped in Cork and Kilkenny, but few elsewhere.

User b-unicycling has added most of the Kilkenny ringforts (from some
external source, I can't recall exactly but I had checked with her
that it was ODBL-compatible) and I then fixed the tagging and reviewed
a few using Bing and GSGS.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52885942
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55717926
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55718276

> I haven't come across many of these until the last few weeks. In that time,
> I seem to have been tagging them incorrectly.
>
> Can I check the correct tagging is:
> historic=archaeological_site
> site_type=fortification
> fortification_type=ringfort ?

Yes, that's what I've been going for after looking at taginfo and the
wiki, but see discussion below.

> I checked http://stat.latlon.org/ie/latest/ for the word "fort", (I didn't
> check for name~fort or description~fort) and there are many tagging
> variations (not all of these will be ringforts).
>
> archaeological_site=earthworks
> archaeological_site=fort
> archaeological_site=ring_fort
> archaeological_site=ringfort
> castle_type=fortification
> castle_type=fortress
> earthworks=rath
> earthworks=ringfort
> earthworks=ringfort (rath)
> fortification=ring_ditch
> fortification_type=hill_fort
> fortification_type=hillfort
> fortification_type=ringfort
> historic=fort
> historic=fortification
> historic=hillfort
> historic=ring fort
> historic=ring_fort
> inscription=Ring fort
> military=fort
> note=Ancient fort
> note=Ancient ring fort
> note=Fawney (fainne) means ring, maybe the site of a ringfort? Was also
> slang to kiss the King/Lords ring. Very interesting as the road is called
> the Royal Oak
> note=Fort
> note=Not sure if these are Barrows or rath, or what the difference is! Ring
> fort
> note=Not sure if these are Barrows or raths, or what the difference is! Ring
> fort
> note=Ring Fort?
> note=Round Fort?
> note=ring fort
> note=ringfort
> ruins=fort
> ruins=ringfort
> site_type=earthwork
> site_type=earthworks
> site_type=enclosure
> site_type=fortification
> site_type=ring fort
> site_type=ringfort
> site_type=ringfort;megalith
> type=ringfort
> wikipedia=en:Ringfort
> wikipedia_1=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort

I last looked at the taginfo numbers about a year ago, let's look again :

There seem to be a split between
historic=archaeological_site,site_type=fortification,fortification_type=ringfort
(~850 uses, Cork and Kilkenny) and historic=earthworks,earthworks=rath
(~1750 uses, Kerry). While the later is more popular, I prefer the
former for these reasons:

* The former seems to fit the OSM worldwide consensus better, and is
documented in the wiki.
* Everybody knows what a fortification is, but earthwork isn't as
clear (sounds like clay pottery to me).
* Most Irish people know what a ringfort is, but a rath... I've only
encountered the word in OSM.
* Maybe earthworks/rath is a better word from an archaeologist's POV.
Maybe a ringfort is subtly different from a rath. But I don't know and
I expect the average OSM contributor doesn't either, so it seems safer
to stick with layman-level "ringfort".

> How should I proceed?

Rorym seems to be behind most of the earthwork=rath objects, so let's
get his opinion first (I'll ping him).

From then on, if we agree on the "ringfort" scheme, I'd say use
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/BFD to locate the "earthworks" objects,
then load them into josm to check and retag.

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