Re: [OSM-talk-ie] OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
As a current (pre-Brexit) NI-resident mapper, I am happy to contribute to developing whatever documentation is felt necessary. Stephen_Co_Antrim > On 4 May 2017, at 10:49, Brian Prangle wrote: > > Personally, if we want detail in writing, I think it's up to ROI mappers > and NI mappers to come up with some form of words that satisfies them, > mainly because they are more aware of the cultural, social and political > nuances of the situation than we are and we're only likely to put our foot > in it and upset someone. I'm happy to accommodate whatever arises and I'm > sure most other people in OSMUK feel the same. > > On 4 May 2017 at 08:42, Rory McCann wrote: > >> On 28/04/17 07:09, Paul Norman wrote: >> >>> There are no restrictions on what local chapters someone is part of, and >>> the local chapters need to have a form of incorporation which allows for >>> easy and mass membership and democratic participation in the decisions >>> processes[1]. >>> >> >> Well that's good and solves that problem. >> >> The restrictions are on what the local chapter can do. They are that the >>> Chapter represent the interests of the local community in its designated >>> geographic region[2]. I'm not sure what it would look like with one >>> chapter representing the interests in Ireland (the island) and another >>> in the UK, and the overlap in Northern Ireland. >>> >> >> The agreement isn't as bad as I feared, it says "The Foundation will not >> establish any other local Chapter within the geographic region without >> consulting with the Chapter." So there is nothing there that will ban an >> overlapping local chapter, merely that the OSMF will consult OSMUK. It >> looks like the founders of OSMUK are OK with this condominium, so there >> doesn't seem to be any roadblocks from OSMUK in principle... >> >> I'm not sure how specifically to move forward, maybe something more in >> detail in writing from people? >> >> Rory >> > ___ > Talk-ie mailing list > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
Personally, if we want detail in writing, I think it's up to ROI mappers and NI mappers to come up with some form of words that satisfies them, mainly because they are more aware of the cultural, social and political nuances of the situation than we are and we're only likely to put our foot in it and upset someone. I'm happy to accommodate whatever arises and I'm sure most other people in OSMUK feel the same. On 4 May 2017 at 08:42, Rory McCann wrote: > On 28/04/17 07:09, Paul Norman wrote: > >> There are no restrictions on what local chapters someone is part of, and >> the local chapters need to have a form of incorporation which allows for >> easy and mass membership and democratic participation in the decisions >> processes[1]. >> > > Well that's good and solves that problem. > > The restrictions are on what the local chapter can do. They are that the >> Chapter represent the interests of the local community in its designated >> geographic region[2]. I'm not sure what it would look like with one >> chapter representing the interests in Ireland (the island) and another >> in the UK, and the overlap in Northern Ireland. >> > > The agreement isn't as bad as I feared, it says "The Foundation will not > establish any other local Chapter within the geographic region without > consulting with the Chapter." So there is nothing there that will ban an > overlapping local chapter, merely that the OSMF will consult OSMUK. It > looks like the founders of OSMUK are OK with this condominium, so there > doesn't seem to be any roadblocks from OSMUK in principle... > > I'm not sure how specifically to move forward, maybe something more in > detail in writing from people? > > Rory > ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
On 28/04/17 07:09, Paul Norman wrote: There are no restrictions on what local chapters someone is part of, and the local chapters need to have a form of incorporation which allows for easy and mass membership and democratic participation in the decisions processes[1]. Well that's good and solves that problem. The restrictions are on what the local chapter can do. They are that the Chapter represent the interests of the local community in its designated geographic region[2]. I'm not sure what it would look like with one chapter representing the interests in Ireland (the island) and another in the UK, and the overlap in Northern Ireland. The agreement isn't as bad as I feared, it says "The Foundation will not establish any other local Chapter within the geographic region without consulting with the Chapter." So there is nothing there that will ban an overlapping local chapter, merely that the OSMF will consult OSMUK. It looks like the founders of OSMUK are OK with this condominium, so there doesn't seem to be any roadblocks from OSMUK in principle... I'm not sure how specifically to move forward, maybe something more in detail in writing from people? Rory ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
On 4/19/2017 4:00 PM, Cormac O Murchú wrote: I would word matters so that an OSMF Member in NI has the simple choice of being a member of the IE Chapter or the UK Chapter, or both simultaneously. I believe this is entirely acceptable to Southerners who generally would be members of IE only. There are no restrictions on what local chapters someone is part of, and the local chapters need to have a form of incorporation which allows for easy and mass membership and democratic participation in the decisions processes[1]. The restrictions are on what the local chapter can do. They are that the Chapter represent the interests of the local community in its designated geographic region[2]. I'm not sure what it would look like with one chapter representing the interests in Ireland (the island) and another in the UK, and the overlap in Northern Ireland. [1]: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/FAQ [2]: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Template_agreement ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
[OSM-talk-ie] OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
Paul and Rob , thanks for your considerate input. I would word matters so that an OSMF Member in NI has the simple choice of being a member of the IE Chapter or the UK Chapter, or both simultaneously. I believe this is entirely acceptable to Southerners who generally would be members of IE only. There are many advantages, the UK GOV is more serious about Open Data and best practice Open Data in the UK is better quality than what is available in the South. So I am quite amenable to being told how to do Open Geo Data by other OSMers. There is a larger pool of expertise in the south on traditional boundaries (from pre 1921) than in NI itself from what I can see too. But the best idea is to allow members living in NI to self identify their choice(s) and for the same rules in both IE and UK chapters to permit this. Thankfully OSM is a map of the world started by the British and not just of these small islands. What! :) My 2c ..or 1.8p ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
[OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
Hi Dave, We have indeed said that we wouldn't object to NI being in an all-island local chapter as well. Users can then pick to be part of OSM UK or OSM IE or both. I think we need OSMF to agree to this but hopefully they recognise the importance here. The split can be very odd in many places. Colm raised the newly formed all island single energy market yet you have the Energy Networks Association (the voice of the networks which has a big voice in Westminster and Brussels, and i guess also in Irish government) which covers both UK and Ireland. The industry players are all over the place now: ESB has ESBI which operates globally, Bord Gáis is owned by Centrica, etc etc. Other industries have similar things. So how would you like to proceed? Perhaps we can agree some text to put into our agreement with the OSMF? Happy to help you set up an Ireland legal entity too. We will of course always notify you if we intend to write to any NI entities (we previously discussed the option of sending a joint letter in these instances). Rob P.s. I work in the energy industry. Give me a shout if you need anything. I assume you already know about GNIs network development plan and Eirgrids Dev plan and gen capacity statement? ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
Rob raised this in the past. If I recall, past discussions on this subject (NI) and under which group it should fall, was treated similar to the way the passport situation has been managed i.e. Those wanting to fall under the UK, registered with the UK group, those wanting to fall under the All Ireland group, register with that group. If there were conflicts, they would be managed by the group they were raised to. If there was some other major change / issue, both groups would work together to achieve a successful conclusion. With all that said, I do not see any special caveats called out for NI that would reflect any of the above, so yes, I would like to raise an objection/concern. Simply put, there are folks who will not recognise/resent a single group covering NI. This needs to be factored into the chapter documents. I believe that a discussion to hash out the finer details is warranted and an agreed set of terms laid out between both entities. Once we get moving on our chapter status, this would be included in ours also. Dave On 19 Apr 2017 12:19, wrote: On 18 April 2017 20:40:06 IST, Colm Moore wrote: >Paul, > >About 12% of my edits are in the UK, mostly Northern Ireland, with a >strong leaning to power and some other networks. > > >I have no particular opinion on this, other than there are certain >practicalities that make treating the island of Ireland as a single >geographical / mapping entity useful, e.g. the shared border, the >history of places / land administration (county, barony, townland, >etc.). This isn't just about boundaries, but also physical >infrastructure (e.g. the A3 has 5 border crossings), Ireland / Northern >Ireland don't use standard gauge railways (one exception) and >businesses (e.g. some banks operate on both sides of the border and >there is a single electricity market, where companies operate on both >sides of the border). That said, there are other businesses that >operate only in Britain and Northern Ireland (some banks) or Britain >and the Republic (Aldi). > > >That said, just because a chapter covers a particular region, doesn't >mean it can't have friendly relations with its neighbours. :) And it >doesn't stop people mapping across borders. > > >Note that the crown dependencies are not part of the UK, although there >are obvious parallels. I too live in ROI but include NI in my mapping activities (and Brexit won't change that :p). OSMIE (http://www.openstreetmap.ie/about-osmie/) has AFAIK stalled its progress towards becoming an OSMF local chapter, but I'm sure this'll eventually get done, and we'll want to include the whole island under the same umbrella. I trust that it isn't a problem for the OSMF if NI is covered by two distinct OSMF local chapters ? -- Vdp Sent from a phone. ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
On 18 April 2017 20:40:06 IST, Colm Moore wrote: >Paul, > >About 12% of my edits are in the UK, mostly Northern Ireland, with a >strong leaning to power and some other networks. > > >I have no particular opinion on this, other than there are certain >practicalities that make treating the island of Ireland as a single >geographical / mapping entity useful, e.g. the shared border, the >history of places / land administration (county, barony, townland, >etc.). This isn't just about boundaries, but also physical >infrastructure (e.g. the A3 has 5 border crossings), Ireland / Northern >Ireland don't use standard gauge railways (one exception) and >businesses (e.g. some banks operate on both sides of the border and >there is a single electricity market, where companies operate on both >sides of the border). That said, there are other businesses that >operate only in Britain and Northern Ireland (some banks) or Britain >and the Republic (Aldi). > > >That said, just because a chapter covers a particular region, doesn't >mean it can't have friendly relations with its neighbours. :) And it >doesn't stop people mapping across borders. > > >Note that the crown dependencies are not part of the UK, although there >are obvious parallels. I too live in ROI but include NI in my mapping activities (and Brexit won't change that :p). OSMIE (http://www.openstreetmap.ie/about-osmie/) has AFAIK stalled its progress towards becoming an OSMF local chapter, but I'm sure this'll eventually get done, and we'll want to include the whole island under the same umbrella. I trust that it isn't a problem for the OSMF if NI is covered by two distinct OSMF local chapters ? -- Vdp Sent from a phone. ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
Paul, About 12% of my edits are in the UK, mostly Northern Ireland, with a strong leaning to power and some other networks. I have no particular opinion on this, other than there are certain practicalities that make treating the island of Ireland as a single geographical / mapping entity useful, e.g. the shared border, the history of places / land administration (county, barony, townland, etc.). This isn't just about boundaries, but also physical infrastructure (e.g. the A3 has 5 border crossings), Ireland / Northern Ireland don't use standard gauge railways (one exception) and businesses (e.g. some banks operate on both sides of the border and there is a single electricity market, where companies operate on both sides of the border). That said, there are other businesses that operate only in Britain and Northern Ireland (some banks) or Britain and the Republic (Aldi). That said, just because a chapter covers a particular region, doesn't mean it can't have friendly relations with its neighbours. :) And it doesn't stop people mapping across borders. Note that the crown dependencies are not part of the UK, although there are obvious parallels. Thank you Colm --- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
[OSM-talk-ie] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
The OSMF has received an application from OpenStreetMap United Kingdom (OSM UK) for their organization to become the OSMF local chapter for the United Kingdom (including the Isle of Man and Channel Islands). This includes Northern Ireland but not the Republic of Ireland. For consultation and as part of due diligence we are asking the UK community for comments on the application. Because there is not just one mailing list for the region, this is being sent to talk-gb@, talk-scotland@, and talk-ie@. If you are aware of other communication channels the UK local community uses, please let them or me know. If you wish to raise concerns about the application privately, you can do so by emailing me. Details of the application can be found at http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Applications/United_Kingdom and the standard template agreement that would be signed is at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Template_agreement. More information on local chapters can be found at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/FAQ Paul Norman OpenStreetMap Foundation Name & Registered Office: Openstreetmap Foundation 132 Maney Hill Road Sutton Coldfield B72 1JU United Kingdom A company limited by guarantee, registered in England and Wales. Registration No. 05912761. ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
