Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Tadeusz Cantwell]

Thanks for the year, I got this result in my search. So a bill becomes an
act after it has gone through the full legislative process. The below link
is titled "Local Government (Numbers and Addresses of Buildings in
Townlands) Bill", which is what the research paper was building up to.
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembly-business/legislation/2011-2016-mandate/current-non-executive-bill-proposals/local-government-numbers-and-addresses-of-buildings-in-townlands-bill/local-government-numbers-and-addresses-of-buildings-in-townlands-bill/
here is the pdf of the bill.
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalassets/documents/legislation/bills/non-executive-bills/session-2015-2016/local-government-townlands/local-government-townlands-bill---as-introduced.pdf

I presume if it had been passed it would have been moved from this part of
the website and therefore was not passed?

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 20:40,  wrote:

> I am pretty sure there was a bill passed to make it a legal requirement
> to
> have the townland in the address, by all official departments, some time
> in
> 2015 or 2016 maybe?
>
> I know there was a lot of noise at the time by Phil Flanagan from
> Fermanagh as
> he wanted to have building numbers within townlands, instead of street
> name
> and numbers plus townlands we have now.
>
> All the townlands have been mapped in NI and are tagged like this -
> https://
> www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4777253
>
> On 26.02.2019 20:09, Tadeusz Cantwell wrote:
>
> > I think it does, Stephen, since at the very least townland names are used
> > in the official database of house names and are used by many councils at
> a
> > local level on signs and as part of their naming convention for roads
> etc,
> > despite no Townland Names Bill having passed the assembly. A very simple
> > question occurs to me, have townlands been already been mapped in N.I and
> > what tags were used for them? If not what tag should be used?
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 19:32, Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie <
> > talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> > See the motions and recommendations in 2001 and 2002 as set out in the
> > 2009 research paper - does that help?
> >
> > http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2009/11109.pdf
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On 26 Feb 2019, at 19:25, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
> >
> > I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used
> boundaries, which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM
> to have
> > historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used for
> > the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
> > effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought
> in. Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the
> matter? Is there some kind of N.I government body to ask.
> >
> > Tadeusz
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[OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Cormac O Murchú]

There is also OSNI open data which is released under the UK Open Government
Licence and is reusable in OSM , see UK OFL in the OSM Wiki. 

 

https://www.opendatani.gov.uk/dataset/osni-open-data-50k-admin-boundaries-wa
rds-19931/resource/091cf8bf-6eba-4ef2-bac4-483ed6094471

 

Add the imagery to josm thus.

 

1.   Preferences imagery , press +WMS bottom on  right and paste this in

 

https://gisservices.spatialni.gov.uk/arcgisc/services/OpenData/OSNIOpenData_
50KBoundaries/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities

=WMS

 

Press 3. Get Layers , data appears below to confirm connector working, 

 

Option 4 appears as a tick box “Store WMS endpoint only” check that,

 

7. name it OSNI

 

OK and OK.

 

You now have new imagery in your dropdown menu in JOSM and you will be asked
to select a single layer like Townlands or Wards 2012 after you select OSNI
imagery. 

 

You may need to fiddle with opacity. 

 


Credit “OSNI Open Data” as you use it in edits. 


 


 


 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[webmaster]

I am pretty sure there was a bill passed to make it a legal requirement
to 
have the townland in the address, by all official departments, some time
in 
2015 or 2016 maybe? 

I know there was a lot of noise at the time by Phil Flanagan from
Fermanagh as 
he wanted to have building numbers within townlands, instead of street
name 
and numbers plus townlands we have now. 

All the townlands have been mapped in NI and are tagged like this -
https://
www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4777253 

On 26.02.2019 20:09, Tadeusz Cantwell wrote:

> I think it does, Stephen, since at the very least townland names are used
> in the official database of house names and are used by many councils at a
> local level on signs and as part of their naming convention for roads etc,
> despite no Townland Names Bill having passed the assembly. A very simple
> question occurs to me, have townlands been already been mapped in N.I and
> what tags were used for them? If not what tag should be used?
> 
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 19:32, Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie <
> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> 
> See the motions and recommendations in 2001 and 2002 as set out in the
> 2009 research paper - does that help?
> 
> http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2009/11109.pdf
> 
> Stephen
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 26 Feb 2019, at 19:25, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
> 
> I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used boundaries, 
> which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM to have
> historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used for
> the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
> effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought in. 
> Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the matter? Is 
> there some kind of N.I government body to ask.
> 
> Tadeusz
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Tadeusz Cantwell]

I really should do more research before I press send. There is, of course,
the townlands website which shows they have been mapped for the whole
island. So the advice for it to only to apply to Ireland the country has
been ignored.


On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 20:09, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:

> I think it does, Stephen, since at the very least townland names are used
> in the official database of house names and are used by many councils at a
> local level on signs and as part of their naming convention for roads etc,
> despite no Townland Names Bill having passed the assembly. A very simple
> question occurs to me, have townlands been already been mapped in N.I and
> what tags were used for them? If not what tag should be used?
>
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 19:32, Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie <
> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> See the motions and recommendations in 2001 and 2002 as set out in the
>> 2009 research paper - does that help?
>>
>> http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2009/11109.pdf
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On 26 Feb 2019, at 19:25, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
>> >
>> > I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used
>> boundaries,
>> > which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM to have
>> > historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used
>> for
>> > the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
>> > effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought
>> in.
>> > Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the
>> matter?
>> > Is there some kind of N.I government body to ask.
>> >
>> > Tadeusz
>> > ___
>> > Talk-ie mailing list
>> > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Tadeusz Cantwell]

I think it does, Stephen, since at the very least townland names are used
in the official database of house names and are used by many councils at a
local level on signs and as part of their naming convention for roads etc,
despite no Townland Names Bill having passed the assembly. A very simple
question occurs to me, have townlands been already been mapped in N.I and
what tags were used for them? If not what tag should be used?

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 19:32, Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie <
talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> See the motions and recommendations in 2001 and 2002 as set out in the
> 2009 research paper - does that help?
>
> http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2009/11109.pdf
>
> Stephen
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On 26 Feb 2019, at 19:25, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
> >
> > I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used
> boundaries,
> > which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM to have
> > historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used for
> > the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
> > effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought
> in.
> > Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the
> matter?
> > Is there some kind of N.I government body to ask.
> >
> > Tadeusz
> > ___
> > Talk-ie mailing list
> > Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie]

See the motions and recommendations in 2001 and 2002 as set out in the 2009 
research paper - does that help?

http://archive.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2009/11109.pdf

Stephen

Sent from my iPad

> On 26 Feb 2019, at 19:25, Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
> 
> I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used boundaries,
> which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM to have
> historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used for
> the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
> effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought in.
> Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the matter?
> Is there some kind of N.I government body to ask.
> 
> Tadeusz
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Tadeusz Cantwell]

I reread the page, which says the tag refers to officially used boundaries,
which would not apply to N.I, since it is not the policy of OSM to have
historic boundaries. However, if, as Stephen says they are still used for
the official addresses of houses then they do have a use and I presume,
effectively haven't changed since 1921 when the ward system was brought in.
Does anyone know of any source or document which would clarify the matter?
Is there some kind of N.I government body to ask.

Tadeusz
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Patrick Matthews]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 10:58 AM Cormac O Murchú  wrote:

> This is unfinished business for us really.
>
>
>
> In 1921 the whole of Ireland was built like.
>
>
>
> Townlands > grouped into
>
> Electoral Divisions  > grouped into
>
> Rural Districts or Urban Districts >  > grouped into
>
> Counties.
>
>
>
> In 2016 the south of Ireland is built like.
>
>
>
> Townlands > grouped into
>
> Electoral Divisions  > grouped into
>
> Municipal Districts  > grouped into
>
> Counties.
>
>
>
> And that latter structure corresponds to admin levels 10 to 7 inclusive.
>
>
>
> In NI a key change occurred immediately after partition.
>
>
>
> Electoral Divisions  were deliberately deprecated in favour of Wards. A
> Ward
> is _a different grouping system for whole townlands_ and the creation of
> these Wards was a political decision made in 1923.
>

Strictly speaking, what happened in 1923 was that electoral divisions were
redrawn and some rural districts were merged (Belleek/Irvinestown and
Lisnaskea/Clones No. 2 in Fermanagh, Crossmaglen/Newry No. 2 in Armagh, the
upper Ards being moved from Downpatrick to Newtownards RD). The orders
defining the new DEDs can be found in the online issues of the Belfast
Gazette at the time and the lists of townlands in each new DED can be seen
in the subsequent census reports from 1926 to 1961. There were further
limited changes at later stages (Downpatrick, Kilkeel, Whitehead,
Newtownabbey being set up as independent urban districts, the merger of the
remainder of Belfast RD into Lisburn RD and the redrawing of DED boundaries
in what were then the Belfast suburbs). The term "wards" was at that stage
only used for subdivisions of urban districts and boroughs.

In 1973 with the restructuring of local government, the term "ward" was
extended to all electoral divisions. There have been three iterations of
wards under the 26-council structure (1973, 1984 and 1992) and one under
the 11-council structure.

Paddy.


>
>
>
> Wards are the admin_level=9 building block in NI.  > grouped into
>
>
>
> District Electoral Areas are the admin_level=8 building block in NI. >
> grouped into
>
>
>
> District Councils like “Fermanagh and Omagh District Council” are the
> admin_level=7 building block. There are 11 of these councils across the 6
> counties.
>
>
>
> The problem is that they often cross county lines unlike in the south where
> no admin level =7 crosses an admin_level=6 boundary. JOSM will fair hiss I
> tells yiz.
>
>
>
> The 32 counties with admin_level=6 tags no longer legally matter SAVE that
> most admin_level=6 entities in the south are coextant with an admin_level=7
> entity with the same name, excepting Cork Dublin and Galway which have more
> admin_level=7 entities than admin_level=6 entities.
>
>
>
> Admin_level=5 entities (provinces) have not existed since the Normans cane,
> in effect. We maintain them as an administrative conceit like we do
> admin_level=6. :)
>
>
>
> In NI Electoral Divisions are boundary=historic (like baronies and cps and
> rds and plu’s are) and with no admin level tag, this has been the case
> since
> 1923, long before OSM ever came along.
>
>
>
> HTH
>
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[OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Colm Moore]

Hi,

Note that townlands are likely used for other purposes, e.g. conveyancing.

Colm

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[OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Cormac O Murchú]

This is unfinished business for us really. 

 

In 1921 the whole of Ireland was built like.

 

Townlands > grouped into

Electoral Divisions  > grouped into

Rural Districts or Urban Districts >  > grouped into

Counties.

 

In 2016 the south of Ireland is built like. 

 

Townlands > grouped into

Electoral Divisions  > grouped into

Municipal Districts  > grouped into

Counties.

 

And that latter structure corresponds to admin levels 10 to 7 inclusive. 

 

In NI a key change occurred immediately after partition.  

 

Electoral Divisions  were deliberately deprecated in favour of Wards. A Ward
is _a different grouping system for whole townlands_ and the creation of
these Wards was a political decision made in 1923. 

 

Wards are the admin_level=9 building block in NI.  > grouped into 

 

District Electoral Areas are the admin_level=8 building block in NI. >
grouped into

 

District Councils like “Fermanagh and Omagh District Council” are the
admin_level=7 building block. There are 11 of these councils across the 6
counties. 

 

The problem is that they often cross county lines unlike in the south where
no admin level =7 crosses an admin_level=6 boundary. JOSM will fair hiss I
tells yiz. 

 

The 32 counties with admin_level=6 tags no longer legally matter SAVE that
most admin_level=6 entities in the south are coextant with an admin_level=7
entity with the same name, excepting Cork Dublin and Galway which have more
admin_level=7 entities than admin_level=6 entities.

 

Admin_level=5 entities (provinces) have not existed since the Normans cane,
in effect. We maintain them as an administrative conceit like we do
admin_level=6. :)

 

In NI Electoral Divisions are boundary=historic (like baronies and cps and
rds and plu’s are) and with no admin level tag, this has been the case since
1923, long before OSM ever came along.

 

HTH  

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Stephen Roulston via Talk-ie]

My understanding is that, for communications from the government in Northern 
Ireland, the use of townlands in addresses is mandatory. 

Stephen_Co_Antrim

Sent from my iPhone

> On 26 Feb 2019, at 05:13, Patrick Matthews  wrote:
> 
> My understanding is that townlands are officially defined in Northern
> Ireland (they form part of the OSNI OpenData administrative boundaries
> release) but while they are still used as building blocks for higher-level
> administrative areas such as wards, they are not normally used in
> addresses. I would suggest adding "and Northern Ireland"  to the entry on
> townlands.
> 
> Paddy Matthews.
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 12:27 AM Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:
>> 
>> According to the wiki
>>  townlands
>> are
>> only valid in Ireland the country as an official admin boundary, but the
>> N.I
>> page 
>> mentions the admin boundaries are similar to townlands. So should the wiki
>> not be updated to something like "and used for historical mapping of admin
>> borders in N.I", or would that kind of change need to be officially
>> approved.
>> 
>> Tadeusz
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands and N.I

[Patrick Matthews]

My understanding is that townlands are officially defined in Northern
Ireland (they form part of the OSNI OpenData administrative boundaries
release) but while they are still used as building blocks for higher-level
administrative areas such as wards, they are not normally used in
addresses. I would suggest adding "and Northern Ireland"  to the entry on
townlands.

Paddy Matthews.

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 12:27 AM Tadeusz Cantwell  wrote:

> According to the wiki
>  townlands
> are
> only valid in Ireland the country as an official admin boundary, but the
> N.I
> page 
> mentions the admin boundaries are similar to townlands. So should the wiki
> not be updated to something like "and used for historical mapping of admin
> borders in N.I", or would that kind of change need to be officially
> approved.
>
> Tadeusz
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