Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Gerrit]

すみません、なんか文字化けになりました。
utf-8で送ったと思いましたのに。
euc-jpだと読めます。

このメーリングリストは全部iso-2022になりますか。utf8に設定する方がいいで 
す！（笑）


Am 03.12.2012 14:09, schrieb ribbon:

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 01:31:15PM +0100, Gerrit wrote:

??

は、ヘッダがISO-2022なのに実際の文字コードが異なるので
読めないです。

oota

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Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[ribbon]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 01:31:15PM +0100, Gerrit wrote:
> ??

は、ヘッダがISO-2022なのに実際の文字コードが異なるので
読めないです。

oota

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Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Gerrit]

ザンゲルです。

せめて地名のため自動的なja_kanaが可能だと思っています。地名の辞書があり 
ませんか。日本郵便局の郵便番号のところに地名の読み方が 載っています 
(http://www.post.japanpost.jp/zipcode/index.html)。他の地名のリストもあ 
るはずじゃないですか。

ja_rmにめぐって、へポン式ローマ字が一番通用しています。そのタッグにその 
ローマ字式しか載らないべきだと思いました。会社の自分の ローマ字はname:en 
に入るべきだと思います。
たとえば、京セラがname:enに「Kyocera」とname:ja_rmに「Kyōsera」で変換す 
ればいいと思います。ja_rm は日本語により深い知識が持っている人のためで、 
name:enは一般的な名前の方がいいと思います。
それで、ja_rmはja_kanaと同じ風に名をつける方がいいと思います。だから、 
ja_rmにもŌsaka-fuやYokohama- shiなどのfuかshi等をかくんじゃないですか。

JOSMにもういろいろなウィザードが入っています。アドレスなどのウィザードが 
あって、そのようなnameのウィザードもあるほうがいいと 思います。
押すと、nameに漢字を入れて、name:jaに同じことが入って、name:ja_kanaで地 
名のリストから読み方を調べてくれて、 name:ja_rmにその読み方を変換しても 
らえます。もちろんそれは全部一回検討すべきですが、入れることは今より簡単 
になれるはずで す。で も、その自動さのせいで利用者が簡単すぎて検定せず 
「決定」押すようになる気配もあります。

ゲリット・ザンゲル

Am 03.12.2012 03:31, schrieb Douglas Perkins:
> ダグラスです。
>
> It's very nice to see the internationalization support progress!
>
> Automatically creating name:ja_kana, name:ja_rm, and name:en is 
> probably not going to work.  Japanese kanji have ambiguous readings, 
> so you can't go from them to a phonetic reading automatically.  And 
> you can't go from a phonetic reading to kanji, because there are many 
> kanji with the same reading.  Also, there are different ways of 
> writing words in romaji, and currently there is not consenus on what 
> name:ja_rm should be.  We probably cannot decide on just one 
> romanization style, because different businesses or places may have 
> their own preferred spelling. Trying to automate the entry process for 
> these tags (except for name, which can be an exact copy of name:ja), 
> may well lead to a large number of errors.
>
> 残念ですが、name:ja だけと知っても、name:ja_kana も name:ja_rm も 
> name:en が分からない可能性があります。
> 漢字の読み方がそんなに簡単なことではないですし。
> ローマ字のスタイルはいろいろがありますし。
> そうすれば、一つ一つ考えないとエラーが多くなるかもしれません。 



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Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Hiroshi Miura(@osmf)]

三浦です。

Pythonで、日本語のよみをromajiにするライブラリを作っています。
変換は、辞書を使っています。
https://launchpad.net/unihandecode

内部的には、KAKASIというライブラリを参考に実装しています。

http://blog.kenichimaehashi.com/?article=13048363750

Javaで実装されたKAKASIもあるので、JOSMプラグインにできるかもしれません。

三浦


On 2012年12月03日 11:47, Daniel Kastl wrote:
> Hi Douglas
>
> Right, it can't be 100% automated.
> So when I meant JOSM plugin, I thought that the automatic conversion will 
> just be a proposal and needs to be corrected manually afterwards. But at 
> least there would be an interface and tags didn't need to be added manually. 
> And some conversions should be possible without problem, for example Kana to 
> Romaji. 
> I know that Kanji can be ambiguous, but when you type you actually type the 
> reading already and then convert it to Kanji. So the plugin had to listen to 
> the key strokes before converting to Kanji.
>
> From personal mapping experience I just feel that adding multiple name tags 
> with more or less identical content is annoying work. If it would be possible 
> to do everything fully automated, it could be better processed afterwards. 
> But because it needs user interaction and verification, it's better to have 
> easy to use tools to make correct tagging easier.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Douglas Perkins  > wrote:
>
> ダグラスです。
>
> It's very nice to see the internationalization support progress!
>
> Automatically creating name:ja_kana, name:ja_rm, and name:en is probably 
> not going to work.  Japanese kanji have ambiguous readings, so you can't go 
> from them to a phonetic reading automatically.  And you can't go from a 
> phonetic reading to kanji, because there are many kanji with the same 
> reading.  Also, there are different ways of writing words in romaji, and 
> currently there is not consenus on what name:ja_rm should be.  We probably 
> cannot decide on just one romanization style, because different businesses or 
> places may have their own preferred spelling.  Trying to automate the entry 
> process for these tags (except for name, which can be an exact copy of 
> name:ja), may well lead to a large number of errors.
>
> 残念ですが、name:ja だけと知っても、name:ja_kana も name:ja_rm も name:en が分からない可能性があります。
> 漢字の読み方がそんなに簡単なことではないですし。
> ローマ字のスタイルはいろいろがありますし。
> そうすれば、一つ一つ考えないとエラーが多くなるかもしれません。
>

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Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Daniel Kastl]

Hi Douglas

Right, it can't be 100% automated.
So when I meant JOSM plugin, I thought that the automatic conversion will
just be a proposal and needs to be corrected manually afterwards. But at
least there would be an interface and tags didn't need to be added
manually. And some conversions should be possible without problem, for
example Kana to Romaji.
I know that Kanji can be ambiguous, but when you type you actually type the
reading already and then convert it to Kanji. So the plugin had to listen
to the key strokes before converting to Kanji.

>From personal mapping experience I just feel that adding multiple name tags
with more or less identical content is annoying work. If it would be
possible to do everything fully automated, it could be better processed
afterwards. But because it needs user interaction and verification, it's
better to have easy to use tools to make correct tagging easier.

Daniel


On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Douglas Perkins wrote:

> ダグラスです。
>
> It's very nice to see the internationalization support progress!
>
> Automatically creating name:ja_kana, name:ja_rm, and name:en is probably
> not going to work.  Japanese kanji have ambiguous readings, so you can't go
> from them to a phonetic reading automatically.  And you can't go from a
> phonetic reading to kanji, because there are many kanji with the same
> reading.  Also, there are different ways of writing words in romaji, and
> currently there is not consenus on what name:ja_rm should be.  We probably
> cannot decide on just one romanization style, because different businesses
> or places may have their own preferred spelling.  Trying to automate the
> entry process for these tags (except for name, which can be an exact copy
> of name:ja), may well lead to a large number of errors.
>
> 残念ですが、name:ja だけと知っても、name:ja_kana も name:ja_rm も name:en が分からない可能性があります。
> 漢字の読み方がそんなに簡単なことではないですし。
> ローマ字のスタイルはいろいろがありますし。
> そうすれば、**一つ一つ考えないとエラーが多くなるかもしれません。
>
>
> On 2012-12-03 10:41, Daniel Kastl wrote:
>
>> Probably some of you also follow the "multilingual map" development
>> of Jochen Topf and the discussion on the talk list.
>>
>> I just want to forward this, as Korea also puts "two languages" in
>> the name tag as Japan, ie. 東京 (Tokyo).
>> As you can see, it should be the job of the map renderer to do this,
>> because it can be done very nicely:
>>
>> http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?**zoom=9&lat=34.51588&lon=135.**
>> 9674&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cja
>> [1]
>>
>> But when you look at the map, there are lots of "name:ja" tags
>> missing, because mappers put all information into "name" tag.
>> I think the Japanese community needs easier name input tools to make
>> name input correct and faster.
>> Maybe a plugin for JOSM, though I don't know how to write this:
>>
>> Could work like this:
>>
>> * Add "name:ja" tag manually
>> * "name" tag is created automatically with the same name
>> as "name:ja" as default
>> * "name:en" and "name:ja_rm" tag would be great, if this could be
>> derived from "name:ja"
>> * "name:ja_kana" tag would be great, if this could be derived
>> from "name:ja" as well
>>
>> So in the best case someone has to write only "name:ja" tag and the
>> others are created automatically (and corrected if necessary).
>> This would be great for multilingual maps.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: ANDREW ERRINGTON 
>>  Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 10:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map
>> To: Martin Koppenhoefer 
>> Cc: "t...@openstreetmap.org" 
>>
>> This is fantastic!  I hope that this, or something like it, can become
>>  the default way of rendering.  In Korea (and Japan) we have adopted
>>  the convention of putting two languages into the name=* tag, which is
>>  tedious, and I think shouldn't be done.
>>
>>  Anyway, could you please look at street names?  Maybe there's a bug.
>>
>>
>> http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?**zoom=18&lat=35.6888&lon=127.**
>> 90618&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cko
>> [2]
>>
>>  It doesn't matter if I use en|ko or ko|en, it seems there is an LF
>>  character between the two strings which is not present in the original
>>  data.  You can see it rendered as 'LF' inside a square box.  This 'LF'
>>  does not appear for other labels, such as restaurants or schools.
>>
>>  Anyway, great work!
>>
>>  Best wishes,
>>
>>  Andrew
>>
>>  On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>   wrote:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Am 02/dic/2012 um 21:45 schrieb Jochen Topf :
>>  >
>>  >> Note that sometimes the name in [] appears below the other name
>> and sometimes
>>  >> right behind it. I am not doing anything different there, I guess
>> it has something
>>  >> to do with the way Mapnik renders multiline labels in different
>> scripts.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Maybe this has to d

Re: [OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Douglas Perkins]

ダグラスです。

It's very nice to see the internationalization support progress!

Automatically creating name:ja_kana, name:ja_rm, and name:en is 
probably not going to work.  Japanese kanji have ambiguous readings, so 
you can't go from them to a phonetic reading automatically.  And you 
can't go from a phonetic reading to kanji, because there are many kanji 
with the same reading.  Also, there are different ways of writing words 
in romaji, and currently there is not consenus on what name:ja_rm should 
be.  We probably cannot decide on just one romanization style, because 
different businesses or places may have their own preferred spelling.  
Trying to automate the entry process for these tags (except for name, 
which can be an exact copy of name:ja), may well lead to a large number 
of errors.


残念ですが、name:ja だけと知っても、name:ja_kana も name:ja_rm も name:en 
が分からない可能性があります。

漢字の読み方がそんなに簡単なことではないですし。
ローマ字のスタイルはいろいろがありますし。
そうすれば、一つ一つ考えないとエラーが多くなるかもしれません。


On 2012-12-03 10:41, Daniel Kastl wrote:

Probably some of you also follow the "multilingual map" development
of Jochen Topf and the discussion on the talk list.

I just want to forward this, as Korea also puts "two languages" in
the name tag as Japan, ie. 東京 (Tokyo).
As you can see, it should be the job of the map renderer to do this,
because it can be done very nicely:

http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=9&lat=34.51588&lon=135.9674&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cja
[1]

But when you look at the map, there are lots of "name:ja" tags
missing, because mappers put all information into "name" tag.
I think the Japanese community needs easier name input tools to make
name input correct and faster.
Maybe a plugin for JOSM, though I don't know how to write this:

Could work like this:

* Add "name:ja" tag manually
* "name" tag is created automatically with the same name
as "name:ja" as default
* "name:en" and "name:ja_rm" tag would be great, if this could be
derived from "name:ja"
* "name:ja_kana" tag would be great, if this could be derived
from "name:ja" as well

So in the best case someone has to write only "name:ja" tag and the
others are created automatically (and corrected if necessary).
This would be great for multilingual maps.

Daniel

-- Forwarded message --
From: ANDREW ERRINGTON 
 Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map
To: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Cc: "t...@openstreetmap.org" 

This is fantastic!  I hope that this, or something like it, can 
become

 the default way of rendering.  In Korea (and Japan) we have adopted
 the convention of putting two languages into the name=* tag, which 
is

 tedious, and I think shouldn't be done.

 Anyway, could you please look at street names?  Maybe there's a bug.


http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=18&lat=35.6888&lon=127.90618&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cko
[2]

 It doesn't matter if I use en|ko or ko|en, it seems there is an LF
 character between the two strings which is not present in the 
original
 data.  You can see it rendered as 'LF' inside a square box.  This 
'LF'

 does not appear for other labels, such as restaurants or schools.

 Anyway, great work!

 Best wishes,

 Andrew

 On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
  wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Am 02/dic/2012 um 21:45 schrieb Jochen Topf :
 >
 >> Note that sometimes the name in [] appears below the other name
and sometimes
 >> right behind it. I am not doing anything different there, I guess
it has something
 >> to do with the way Mapnik renders multiline labels in different 
scripts.

 >
 >
 > Maybe this has to do with the wrap width you set for the
textsymbolizer, or is it independent from the length of the name?
 >
 > Cheers,
 > Martin
 > ___
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 > t...@openstreetmap.org
 > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [3]

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--
Georepublic UG & Georepublic Japan
eMail: daniel.ka...@georepublic.de
 Web: http://georepublic.de [4]


Links:
--
[1]

http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=9&lat=34.51588&lon=135.9674&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cja
[2]

http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=18&lat=35.6888&lon=127.90618&layers=B0T&lang=en%7Cko
[3] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[4] http://georepublic.de/

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