Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:19:09 Brian McLaughlin wrote: > I would like to suggest the use of hyphens in the Romanized name to > emphasize the place or feature type. See examples below. This is already in > common use on many signs put up by the Korean government. This makes the > usually long Romanized names easier to read, and what type of feature it is > easier to understand for the map reader especially those not able to read > Hangul. > > Gangwon-do > Jiri-san > Sindorim-dong > Yeoui-daero > Jayur-ro > > Also, drop the parentheses. I don't see them as being useful. Most of the Romanised names do have hypens, but it depends on whatever is on the sign. I have seen some inconsistency across the country, despite the signmaking being a national programme. I actually found a guide to Romanisation of Korean signs. I'll see if I can find it again (it was quite a large PDF file so I may have deleted my copy). The parentheses will be dropped as a side effect of not including name:en in the name=* field. They were useful as they clearly demarcate the English label, and they are consistent with the Japanese style (which is the source of the original "name:ko (name:en)" convention). Some renderers also relied on their presence so that they could extract the two parts of the name=* field. That broke when the parentheses were deleted from some labels. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
I would like to suggest the use of hyphens in the Romanized name to emphasize the place or feature type. See examples below. This is already in common use on many signs put up by the Korean government. This makes the usually long Romanized names easier to read, and what type of feature it is easier to understand for the map reader especially those not able to read Hangul. Gangwon-do Jiri-san Sindorim-dong Yeoui-daero Jayur-ro Also, drop the parentheses. I don't see them as being useful. ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Addendum: MapQuest is already rendering bilingual Maps from OSM data. That could serve you as a ressource until the openstreetmap.org portal updates it's functionality to support international names. http://www.mapquest.com/ On 10/14/2014 03:26 PM, Max wrote: > I absolutely agree with you. The bilingual display on the Mapnik > renderer can be useful for many. I hope that there will be a way > to set the language in the future. Or even better: a list of > languages from the browser will be used to determine which > languages to display. (for example: my languages are: english, > french, korean. The map would display "name:en" if available, if > not it would display "name:fr" and if that's not available > "name:ko". If neither of these three is available it would show > "name:") A requirement for this would be that the map (or at least > the labels) are aseparate layer, or even better: vectors. There is > some work being done in this direction. We'll see what the future > brings. One place where it already is working have an Android > smartphone you should try this out. > > https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik/issues/769 > http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ (currently broken) > http://thaimap.osm-tools.org/ an alternative map rendering that > shows thailand with thai and english names (it combines "name:" and > name:en" values and looks just like korea is looking now) > https://code.google.com/p/osmand/wiki/OsmAndRegionalSettings > > Thanks for your remark about japanese and chinese. I'll add this. > > > On 10/14/2014 09:46 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: >> I have no real objection to the change, but I must point out >> that having Korean and English in the name=* tag has been >> extremely useful to me as a visitor to Korea. Other maps show >> only Korean. What I would like to see is an international version >> of the map which shows Korean and English for each object >> (street, shop, park, whatever) made from "name:ko (name:en)". >> There have been some experiments for this in the past, so maybe >> it will happen in the future. > >> I am glad there has been some dialog on this. I wrote the wiki >> pages describing the naming convention in detail, but the >> original convention was chosen long ago based on the same >> decision made in Japan. Recently Japan has moved away from using >> Japanese and English in the name=* tag. Again, this is >> disappointing as the map is useful to me this way, however, >> hopefully similar functionality can be introduced in the future. > >> I would recommend adding to the Wiki a note about name:ja and >> name:zh for Japanese and Chinese name tags too. I think ja and >> zh are the correct language codes. > >> Best wishes, > >> Andrew > > >> On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:14:26 Max wrote: >>> There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change >>> the naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is >>> going to be too fast or not in the right direction. >>> >>> Do you disagree with the following for the wiki? >>> >>> >>> >>> Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is >>> written in Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized >>> or translated versions of names. Most often they are in >>> English, but Chinese and Japanese can also be found. The >>> romanization should follow the Revised Romanization of Korean >>> for South Korea, and the McCune–Reischauer romanization for >>> North Korea. >>> >>> name= Name in Hangeul name:ko= Name in Hangeul name:en= >>> Translation if available, otherwise romanized name:ko_rm= >>> romanized >>> >>> Example name=경부고속도로 name:ko=경부고속도로 name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway >>> name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ Talk-ko >>> mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > > >> ___ Talk-ko mailing >> list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > > > > ___ Talk-ko mailing > list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQ80CgACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6JphgCfTVaLmpE/YGSKX/cHEwFZ+wbg MFgAnjFpAjAK9wu22RMh/1YJdBHzO2Up =R734 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I absolutely agree with you. The bilingual display on the Mapnik renderer can be useful for many. I hope that there will be a way to set the language in the future. Or even better: a list of languages from the browser will be used to determine which languages to display. (for example: my languages are: english, french, korean. The map would display "name:en" if available, if not it would display "name:fr" and if that's not available "name:ko". If neither of these three is available it would show "name:") A requirement for this would be that the map (or at least the labels) are aseparate layer, or even better: vectors. There is some work being done in this direction. We'll see what the future brings. One place where it already is working have an Android smartphone you should try this out. https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik/issues/769 http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ (currently broken) http://thaimap.osm-tools.org/ an alternative map rendering that shows thailand with thai and english names (it combines "name:" and name:en" values and looks just like korea is looking now) https://code.google.com/p/osmand/wiki/OsmAndRegionalSettings Thanks for your remark about japanese and chinese. I'll add this. On 10/14/2014 09:46 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: > I have no real objection to the change, but I must point out that > having Korean and English in the name=* tag has been extremely > useful to me as a visitor to Korea. Other maps show only Korean. > What I would like to see is an international version of the map > which shows Korean and English for each object (street, shop, park, > whatever) made from "name:ko (name:en)". There have been some > experiments for this in the past, so maybe it will happen in the > future. > > I am glad there has been some dialog on this. I wrote the wiki > pages describing the naming convention in detail, but the original > convention was chosen long ago based on the same decision made in > Japan. Recently Japan has moved away from using Japanese and > English in the name=* tag. Again, this is disappointing as the map > is useful to me this way, however, hopefully similar functionality > can be introduced in the future. > > I would recommend adding to the Wiki a note about name:ja and > name:zh for Japanese and Chinese name tags too. I think ja and zh > are the correct language codes. > > Best wishes, > > Andrew > > > On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:14:26 Max wrote: >> There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change >> the naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is >> going to be too fast or not in the right direction. >> >> Do you disagree with the following for the wiki? >> >> >> >> Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is written >> in Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized or >> translated versions of names. Most often they are in English, but >> Chinese and Japanese can also be found. The romanization should >> follow the Revised Romanization of Korean for South Korea, and >> the McCune–Reischauer romanization for North Korea. >> >> name= Name in Hangeul name:ko= Name in Hangeul name:en= >> Translation if available, otherwise romanized name:ko_rm= >> romanized >> >> Example name=경부고속도로 name:ko=경부고속도로 name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway >> name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro >> >> >> >> ___ Talk-ko mailing >> list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > > > ___ Talk-ko mailing > list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQ8whIACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6Jp3wCeKs9dGBenVQb26yWMTLdTiq1U wj8AoIfJf1isVgUspOMvbNBmwQnWYt/B =vhn7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
I have no real objection to the change, but I must point out that having Korean and English in the name=* tag has been extremely useful to me as a visitor to Korea. Other maps show only Korean. What I would like to see is an international version of the map which shows Korean and English for each object (street, shop, park, whatever) made from "name:ko (name:en)". There have been some experiments for this in the past, so maybe it will happen in the future. I am glad there has been some dialog on this. I wrote the wiki pages describing the naming convention in detail, but the original convention was chosen long ago based on the same decision made in Japan. Recently Japan has moved away from using Japanese and English in the name=* tag. Again, this is disappointing as the map is useful to me this way, however, hopefully similar functionality can be introduced in the future. I would recommend adding to the Wiki a note about name:ja and name:zh for Japanese and Chinese name tags too. I think ja and zh are the correct language codes. Best wishes, Andrew On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:14:26 Max wrote: > There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change the > naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is going to be > too fast or not in the right direction. > > Do you disagree with the following for the wiki? > > > > Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is written in > Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized or translated > versions of names. Most often they are in English, but Chinese and > Japanese can also be found. The romanization should follow the Revised > Romanization of Korean for South Korea, and the McCune–Reischauer > romanization for North Korea. > > name= Name in Hangeul > name:ko= Name in Hangeul > name:en= Translation if available, otherwise romanized > name:ko_rm= romanized > > Example > name=경부고속도로 > name:ko=경부고속도로 > name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway > name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro > > > > ___ > Talk-ko mailing list > Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change the naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is going to be too fast or not in the right direction. Do you disagree with the following for the wiki? - Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is written in Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized or translated versions of names. Most often they are in English, but Chinese and Japanese can also be found. The romanization should follow the Revised Romanization of Korean for South Korea, and the McCune–Reischauer romanization for North Korea. name= Name in Hangeul name:ko= Name in Hangeul name:en= Translation if available, otherwise romanized name:ko_rm= romanized Example name=경부고속도로 name:ko=경부고속도로 name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro - -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQ6jMIACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6ICUACfVSLQ9nBZ0Ld+aOmg8nOy+Pfx LoIAn3uFw9SJL8e/PTa/7x9EKldvN+/0 =oVTU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Names In Japan they ad another name:jp with the same contents as the name= does that make sense for Korea too? On 10/11/2014 09:28 PM, Changwoo Ryu wrote: > I agree it should be changed. > > This convention was not because English was dominant in this area, > but because the most map editors were non-Korean visitors. Another > examples are some of Middle Eastern areas. > > > 2014-10-07 0:52 GMT+09:00 Max : Looking > at the old thread I can see that everyone involved (Changwoo Ryu, > Andrew Errington, Paul Norman) agree that the current convention > should be changed. > > Is there anyone on this list that disagrees with that? When can > safely be said that there is a consensus? If nobody has objections > within a week? There is so little traffic on this list that it > seems it either reaches not many or there are not many active > mappers/community members in Korea. > > M. > > On 10/06/2014 12:10 AM, Max wrote: This has been mentioned in the thread, thanks for adding the reference. 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington >>> gmail.com>: > However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider > dropping the convention. I have learned that mappers in > Japan have recently decided to do the same (although the > wiki has not been updated everywhere to show this). On 10/05/2014 10:52 PM, Lukas Sommer wrote: > I noticed the non-standard naming convention in Korea and > Japan. > I understand this is due to historic reasons and inspired > by the Japanese convention, the only other place where this > is like that. > The Japanese community is currently switching from > name=JAPANESE (ENGLISH) to name=JAPANESE + name:ja=JAPANESE > + name:en=ENGLISH. (See also > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019326.html) > > ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > >> >> ___ Talk-ko mailing >> list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > > ___ Talk-ko mailing > list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQ5XYUACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6IstgCggKdfU1Lgx093lKzecTP9gBXi B8IAn3R2ub/hosaedVjXZRS4bc9n7Tkm =Vu8e -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
I agree it should be changed. This convention was not because English was dominant in this area, but because the most map editors were non-Korean visitors. Another examples are some of Middle Eastern areas. 2014-10-07 0:52 GMT+09:00 Max : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Looking at the old thread I can see that everyone involved (Changwoo > Ryu, Andrew Errington, Paul Norman) agree that the current convention > should be changed. > > Is there anyone on this list that disagrees with that? > When can safely be said that there is a consensus? > If nobody has objections within a week? > There is so little traffic on this list that it seems it either > reaches not many or there are not many active mappers/community > members in Korea. > > M. > > On 10/06/2014 12:10 AM, Max wrote: >> This has been mentioned in the thread, thanks for adding the >> reference. >> >> 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington > gmail.com>: >>> However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider >>> dropping the convention. I have learned that mappers in Japan >>> have recently decided to do the same (although the wiki has not >>> been updated everywhere to show this). >> >> On 10/05/2014 10:52 PM, Lukas Sommer wrote: >> >>> I noticed the non-standard naming convention in Korea and Japan. >> >> >> >>> I understand this is due to historic reasons and inspired by the >>> Japanese convention, the only other place where this is like >>> that. >> >> >>> The Japanese community is currently switching from name=JAPANESE >>> (ENGLISH) to name=JAPANESE + name:ja=JAPANESE + >>> name:en=ENGLISH. (See also >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019326.html) >> >>> >> ___ Talk-ko mailing >> list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko >> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1 > > iEYEARECAAYFAlQyus8ACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6ITzQCgh25pLwVzipBAyIYfa4TGPser > pGoAn1Cbx76KsMq7o81fO0YfPg2m5yVp > =tEp9 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Talk-ko mailing list > Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Looking at the old thread I can see that everyone involved (Changwoo Ryu, Andrew Errington, Paul Norman) agree that the current convention should be changed. Is there anyone on this list that disagrees with that? When can safely be said that there is a consensus? If nobody has objections within a week? There is so little traffic on this list that it seems it either reaches not many or there are not many active mappers/community members in Korea. M. On 10/06/2014 12:10 AM, Max wrote: > This has been mentioned in the thread, thanks for adding the > reference. > > 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington gmail.com>: >> However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider >> dropping the convention. I have learned that mappers in Japan >> have recently decided to do the same (although the wiki has not >> been updated everywhere to show this). > > On 10/05/2014 10:52 PM, Lukas Sommer wrote: > >> I noticed the non-standard naming convention in Korea and Japan. > > > >> I understand this is due to historic reasons and inspired by the >> Japanese convention, the only other place where this is like >> that. > > >> The Japanese community is currently switching from name=JAPANESE >> (ENGLISH) to name=JAPANESE + name:ja=JAPANESE + >> name:en=ENGLISH. (See also >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019326.html) > >> > ___ Talk-ko mailing > list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQyus8ACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6ITzQCgh25pLwVzipBAyIYfa4TGPser pGoAn1Cbx76KsMq7o81fO0YfPg2m5yVp =tEp9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 This has been mentioned in the thread, thanks for adding the reference. 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington : > However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider > dropping the convention. I have learned that mappers in Japan have > recently decided to do the same (although the wiki has not been > updated everywhere to show this). On 10/05/2014 10:52 PM, Lukas Sommer wrote: > > I noticed the non-standard naming convention in Korea and Japan. > > > > I understand this is due to historic reasons and inspired by the > Japanese convention, the only other place where this is like that. > > > The Japanese community is currently switching from name=JAPANESE > (ENGLISH) to name=JAPANESE + name:ja=JAPANESE + name:en=ENGLISH. > (See also > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-September/019326.html) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlQxX1oACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6LPKQCfW8oOorsfT/hf1ZRaaf30i36b SaAAmwckGHnypqmesgvry9k38s9cG/AZ =QA4Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
