Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Martin Norbäck Olivers]

No i don't mean motorway. I mean highway as in a road and not a city
street. They sometimes hav bicycle paths running along them.

The fact that Swedish law has an exception that lets you use the street if
it's more appropriate and there often are sporadic cycle paths makes it
hard to use the tag mentioned I think. That is not to say that there may be
situations where it's appropriate to use. But not just because there is a
cycle path nearby.

I have not seen a discussion on this. I guess it's not much of a problem
here.

Regarding the table: road traffic is very regulated so there wouldn't be
much trouble creating a Swedish table I think.

söndag 12 juli 2015 skrev Leonardo Brondani Schenkel :

> On 12/07/2015 21:26, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> > There are some places where that tag would be appropriate I think. But
> > not just because there is a cycle path nearby.
>
> Why not?
>
> > I'm thinking highways outside the city with an adjacent cycle path.
>
> Highways (if you mean motorways) imply 'bicycle=no' so you can't use the
> tag, according to the proposal.
>
> > But I guess there could be a case for these tags, although they would
> > have to be changed when the law changes.  Would it not be better to keep
> > these things separate from osm? Tag what's on the ground, not in the law
> > books?
>
> True, and I agree, although it's possible to argue that almost all
> instances of access tags are about the intersection of the law and
> what's in the ground — the signs usually tell if something is different
> from the "law defaults".
>
> In this specific example, it could also be argued that this is encoding
> what's on the ground since the "D4: påbjuden cykelbana" sign is saying
> exactly that the cycleway is the mandatory way for cyclists and it's not
> allowed to use the road (barring the exceptions). If the sign was not
> there that wouldn't be the case. Is it that different from a max speed
> sign or a "no parking", or "no heavy vehicles" sign?
>
> I'm not necessarily arguing here that all roads should be changed, or
> I'm going to do start doing that right now. I just wanted to know if
> there's any consensus in the SE community about that because this was
> discussed to death in the DE and NL mailing lists and they concluded
> that "cycleway=use_sidepath" would be useful, there was a proposal and
> it was approved and it became "official" — so my original question is if
> Sweden is one of the countries with the so called "compulsory
> cycleways"? If no, in what way is Sweden different than Germany or
> Netherlands? If yes, what do people here think about the approved proposal?
>
> Personally, I do think the proposal is useful and if people are
> interested I can further explain my reasoning. However, I would have
> preferred if there was an official way of creating a relation between
> the cycleway and the road, so the same information could be inferred by
> having a road related to a path tagged as "bicycle=designated" (default
> for cycleways). That would not require an extra tag and in case the law
> changes only the inference needs to change, not the tagging.
> Unfortunately that was not the approach that was approved; they seemed
> to have chosen a more pragmatic one.
>
> By the way, why is Sweden not listed here?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
>
> Did nobody care or is there no local consensus about what the default
> is? It would help foreign mappers such as myself if the information was
> there (I could not find it even in the Swedish pages). I would edit the
> wiki myself if I knew what they are.
>
> // Leonardo.
>
> >
> > söndag 12 juli 2015 skrev Leonardo Brondani Schenkel
> >   >>:
> >
> > On 12/07/2015 18:47, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> > > Yes you must use the cycle path but that law will probably soon
> > change.
> > >
> > > You are allowed to use the road if it's better for your
> destination,
> > > whatever that means. So it's not against the law to use the road
> > and so
> > > it should not be tagged as such.
> > >
> > > A routing app for bicycles should be clever enough to use the bike
> > path
> > > anyway.
> >
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > Thanks for the quick reply. If I understood you correctly, then
> Sweden
> > would qualify as one of the countries having "compulsory cycleways"
> as
> > defined at the wiki:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath
> >
> > I do understand that there are scenarios that authorize you to use
> the
> > road, and that's why bicycle="use_sidepath" is not the same as
> > bicycle="no". Are you objecting to the latter or to the former as
> well?
> >
> > P.S.: I don't really get why the law says you *must* use the cycle
> path
> > and at the same time allows you to use the road. This means to me
> that
> > in practice the use of the cycle path is encourag

Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Leonardo Brondani Schenkel]

On 12/07/2015 21:26, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> There are some places where that tag would be appropriate I think. But
> not just because there is a cycle path nearby.

Why not?

> I'm thinking highways outside the city with an adjacent cycle path.

Highways (if you mean motorways) imply 'bicycle=no' so you can't use the
tag, according to the proposal.

> But I guess there could be a case for these tags, although they would
> have to be changed when the law changes.  Would it not be better to keep
> these things separate from osm? Tag what's on the ground, not in the law
> books?

True, and I agree, although it's possible to argue that almost all
instances of access tags are about the intersection of the law and
what's in the ground — the signs usually tell if something is different
from the "law defaults".

In this specific example, it could also be argued that this is encoding
what's on the ground since the "D4: påbjuden cykelbana" sign is saying
exactly that the cycleway is the mandatory way for cyclists and it's not
allowed to use the road (barring the exceptions). If the sign was not
there that wouldn't be the case. Is it that different from a max speed
sign or a "no parking", or "no heavy vehicles" sign?

I'm not necessarily arguing here that all roads should be changed, or
I'm going to do start doing that right now. I just wanted to know if
there's any consensus in the SE community about that because this was
discussed to death in the DE and NL mailing lists and they concluded
that "cycleway=use_sidepath" would be useful, there was a proposal and
it was approved and it became "official" — so my original question is if
Sweden is one of the countries with the so called "compulsory
cycleways"? If no, in what way is Sweden different than Germany or
Netherlands? If yes, what do people here think about the approved proposal?

Personally, I do think the proposal is useful and if people are
interested I can further explain my reasoning. However, I would have
preferred if there was an official way of creating a relation between
the cycleway and the road, so the same information could be inferred by
having a road related to a path tagged as "bicycle=designated" (default
for cycleways). That would not require an extra tag and in case the law
changes only the inference needs to change, not the tagging.
Unfortunately that was not the approach that was approved; they seemed
to have chosen a more pragmatic one.

By the way, why is Sweden not listed here?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions

Did nobody care or is there no local consensus about what the default
is? It would help foreign mappers such as myself if the information was
there (I could not find it even in the Swedish pages). I would edit the
wiki myself if I knew what they are.

// Leonardo.

> 
> söndag 12 juli 2015 skrev Leonardo Brondani Schenkel
> mailto:leona...@schenkel.net>>:
> 
> On 12/07/2015 18:47, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> > Yes you must use the cycle path but that law will probably soon
> change.
> >
> > You are allowed to use the road if it's better for your destination,
> > whatever that means. So it's not against the law to use the road
> and so
> > it should not be tagged as such.
> >
> > A routing app for bicycles should be clever enough to use the bike
> path
> > anyway.
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply. If I understood you correctly, then Sweden
> would qualify as one of the countries having "compulsory cycleways" as
> defined at the wiki:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath
> 
> I do understand that there are scenarios that authorize you to use the
> road, and that's why bicycle="use_sidepath" is not the same as
> bicycle="no". Are you objecting to the latter or to the former as well?
> 
> P.S.: I don't really get why the law says you *must* use the cycle path
> and at the same time allows you to use the road. This means to me that
> in practice the use of the cycle path is encouraged, but not really
> mandatory (if hypothetically the police stops you, you could always
> argue that "it was better for your destination", couldn't you?).
> 
> // Leonardo.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Martin Norbäck Olivers]

There are some places where that tag would be appropriate I think. But not
just because there is a cycle path nearby.

I'm thinking highways outside the city with an adjacent cycle path.

But I guess there could be a case for these tags, although they would have
to be changed when the law changes.  Would it not be better to keep these
things separate from osm? Tag what's on the ground, not in the law books?

söndag 12 juli 2015 skrev Leonardo Brondani Schenkel :

> On 12/07/2015 18:47, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> > Yes you must use the cycle path but that law will probably soon change.
> >
> > You are allowed to use the road if it's better for your destination,
> > whatever that means. So it's not against the law to use the road and so
> > it should not be tagged as such.
> >
> > A routing app for bicycles should be clever enough to use the bike path
> > anyway.
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> Thanks for the quick reply. If I understood you correctly, then Sweden
> would qualify as one of the countries having "compulsory cycleways" as
> defined at the wiki:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath
>
> I do understand that there are scenarios that authorize you to use the
> road, and that's why bicycle="use_sidepath" is not the same as
> bicycle="no". Are you objecting to the latter or to the former as well?
>
> P.S.: I don't really get why the law says you *must* use the cycle path
> and at the same time allows you to use the road. This means to me that
> in practice the use of the cycle path is encouraged, but not really
> mandatory (if hypothetically the police stops you, you could always
> argue that "it was better for your destination", couldn't you?).
>
> // Leonardo.
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-se mailing list
> Talk-se@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se
>
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Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Magnus Bäck]

On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Leonardo Brondani Schenkel
 wrote:

> P.S.: I don't really get why the law says you *must* use the cycle path
> and at the same time allows you to use the road. This means to me that
> in practice the use of the cycle path is encouraged, but not really
> mandatory (if hypothetically the police stops you, you could always
> argue that "it was better for your destination", couldn't you?).

Sure, but that could be challenged in the courts. You *must* not kill
people either but under specific circumstances (like self-defense) you
may still do so, yet you may have to defend your decision and the
court may not agree with your judgement of the situation you were in.

-Magnus

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Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Leonardo Brondani Schenkel]

On 12/07/2015 18:47, Martin Norbäck Olivers wrote:
> Yes you must use the cycle path but that law will probably soon change.
> 
> You are allowed to use the road if it's better for your destination,
> whatever that means. So it's not against the law to use the road and so
> it should not be tagged as such.
> 
> A routing app for bicycles should be clever enough to use the bike path
> anyway.

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the quick reply. If I understood you correctly, then Sweden
would qualify as one of the countries having "compulsory cycleways" as
defined at the wiki:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath

I do understand that there are scenarios that authorize you to use the
road, and that's why bicycle="use_sidepath" is not the same as
bicycle="no". Are you objecting to the latter or to the former as well?

P.S.: I don't really get why the law says you *must* use the cycle path
and at the same time allows you to use the road. This means to me that
in practice the use of the cycle path is encouraged, but not really
mandatory (if hypothetically the police stops you, you could always
argue that "it was better for your destination", couldn't you?).

// Leonardo.



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Re: [Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Martin Norbäck Olivers]

Yes you must use the cycle path but that law will probably soon change.

You are allowed to use the road if it's better for your destination,
whatever that means. So it's not against the law to use the road and so it
should not be tagged as such.

A routing app for bicycles should be clever enough to use the bike path
anyway.

söndag 12 juli 2015 skrev Leonardo Brondani Schenkel :

> Hej!
>
> Sorry for not writing in Swedish but I'm not fluent. I'm a foreign OSM
> mapper who lives in Malmö and who is a bicycle enthusiast. I would like
> to clarify something with the local community of OSM mappers, since I
> couldn't find this information in the OSM wiki pages (nor the Swedish
> ones).
>
> My main question is about what the Swedish traffic law states about
> cycleways marked with the D4 (påbjuden cykelbana) sign and their
> relation with the neighbouring road. In case there's such a marked
> cycleway at the side of a road, is it compulsory for cyclists to use the
> cycleway (assuming it's usable, let's forget about snow or poor
> maintenance for now) or are cyclists still allowed to use the road and
> ignore the cycleway if they choose to?
>
> In OSM terms, and assuming that the answer to my previous question is
> "cyclists must always use the cycleway", does it mean that I can/should
> tag a road near a "highway=cycleway" or near a path with
> "bicycle=designated" with "bicycle=use_sidepath"
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath)?
>
> I do have some other additional questions, but let's take one at a time.
>
> Tack!
> // Leonardo.
>
>
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[Talk-se] Swedish law for cycle lanes (marked with D4 påbjuden cykelbana)

[Leonardo Brondani Schenkel]

Hej!

Sorry for not writing in Swedish but I'm not fluent. I'm a foreign OSM
mapper who lives in Malmö and who is a bicycle enthusiast. I would like
to clarify something with the local community of OSM mappers, since I
couldn't find this information in the OSM wiki pages (nor the Swedish ones).

My main question is about what the Swedish traffic law states about
cycleways marked with the D4 (påbjuden cykelbana) sign and their
relation with the neighbouring road. In case there's such a marked
cycleway at the side of a road, is it compulsory for cyclists to use the
cycleway (assuming it's usable, let's forget about snow or poor
maintenance for now) or are cyclists still allowed to use the road and
ignore the cycleway if they choose to?

In OSM terms, and assuming that the answer to my previous question is
"cyclists must always use the cycleway", does it mean that I can/should
tag a road near a "highway=cycleway" or near a path with
"bicycle=designated" with "bicycle=use_sidepath"
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath)?

I do have some other additional questions, but let's take one at a time.

Tack!
// Leonardo.


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