Re: [Talk-transit] Walking buses?

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> when I resurveyed some bus stops today I came across some signs
> saying "walking bus" (http://www.b3e.net/walking-bus.jpg). Apart from
> the small sign on a lamp post was nothing else on the street which
> indicated a bus stop. There were even parking cars right in front of
> the sign.
> Back home I say that the NaPTAN data contains information about these
> walking bus stops. http://www.b3e.net/walking-bus-map.png show a map
> with to walking bus stops in grey and the naptan stops in yellow. The
> NaPTAN stop at the bottom of the map has AtcoCode 43000376801, the one
> above is 43000376802 and the other two are 43000373802 and 43000373801.
>
> Since I have never seen a bus in these roads nor any people waiting for
> buses I am really wondering what these signs are there for.
>
>
>   
A walking bus is a way to gather a group of children together with a few 
adults and walk together to and from school.  There is no vehicle involved.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] Naptan import

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> Hi
>
> "Roger Slevin"  schrieb:
>
>   
>> Locality Classification was added as a possible "nice to have" to the
>> version 2 schema but it has not been populated, and no guidance has
>> been created to indicate how this field should be used (save for a
>> table of permitted values).  There is no classification data in NPTG
>> other than that which comes from the source - and that is only there
>> because it could be ... I would not recommend its use as it is flaky,
>> and offers nothing in respect of newly created locality entries in
>> the Gazetteer.
>> 
>
> So, it looks like we will not have any classification information.
> Unless we just want to import the plain names this will complicate the
> import a bit as we have to somehow map the locations to OSM place-types.
> At the moment I am having three ideas how we could do this:
>
> Based on the parent relationship we could guess if a location might
> be a suburb or village.
>
> Many places have wikipedia entries (even villages). If we can manage
> to automatically look the entries up and extract the relevant
> information (population size) from the info box we could probably
> classify a lot of places.
>
> The landsat data might give us some hints about the size of places. We
> just need to find a way to retrieve this information automatically :-)
>
> Alternatively we could just invent a value for unclassified places and
> wait for people to classify the places.
>
> Do you have any other ideas?
>
>   
Ask for local experts.  I have maintained a list of places in East 
Yorkshire in the wiki.  There are about 280 villages and hamlets.  I've 
visited almost 90% to map them and assess if they are really still a 
place.  Many have been added from NPE and they just don't exist on the 
ground any more.  I then judge village versus hamlet on criteria, like 
size, is there a school, church, shop etc. and what does the Wikipedia 
entry or other web sites say.  I then add local knowledge.

Having done this work I would prefer that a bulk upload doesn't add 
places in the county without prior discussion.  You would probably be 
able to find someone to do a sanity check like this for many (most? 
all?) areas.  My experience is that sources of UK places need human 
intervention to make them useful.

Cheers, Chris

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[Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops

[Chris Hill]

I've started to survey the bus stops Thomas imported for Hull. I chose a 
small area to look at to see how it went. 

* Out of 12 stops surveyed, 2 don't exist on the ground. 
* The codes given as the naptan:AtcoCode are not displayed on the
  stops' signs, but an abbreviated version is, for example:
  naptan:AtcoCode=2290YHA01230 is displayed as 29901230.
* The naptan:Bearing seems good using 8 cardinal points.
* The positions are well placed against the road so far, but the
  position along the road can be quite inaccurate.  This cannot be
  random GPS inaccuracy as they would equally be away from the road
  but more likely some kind of human error.
* The whole process will take a lot of work!

On the stops that are missing I will remove the highway=bus_stop tag and 
add physically_present=no as per the suggestions from the wiki page.

I have found 1 stop (so far) that is not as described.  The stop is 
described as on Gershwin Road, when it is actually on Sibelius Road 
(based on its code).  The bearing is N when the stop points W.  So how 
much of the Naptan data (if any) should I change?  I can move the stop 
to its actual position, but then the naptan:street will not match the 
street it is on and so on.  Any opinions, or suggestions are welcome.  
If we reach a consensus then I'll amend the wiki page.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops

[Chris Hill]

From: Roger Slevin 
>To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics 
>
>Sent: Friday, 21 August, 2009 16:38:52
>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops
>
> >
> 
> 
> >
>
>
>Peter
> 
>I can confirm that the Department for Transport would be
>supportive of any way in which we (and the local editors who maintain NaPTAN
>data as best they can) can get the feedback from OSM contributions to improve
>data accuracy.  I will be happy to discuss how best this can be done – but I
>suggest that you and others on this list are much better placed to propose a
>method that works within the framework of OSM.
> 
>Roger
>I have reported the faults I have found via the professional
>service we run for the DfT for the purpose 
>(http://www.itoworld.com/static/naptan).
>I suggest that the DfT/Traveline might consider making this interface available
>to OSM mapping people to do the same or opening up a public version.
>

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops

[Chris Hill]

Roger Slevin wrote:

  
  
  

  
  Peter
   
  I
can confirm that the Department for Transport would be
supportive of any way in which we (and the local editors who maintain
NaPTAN
data as best they can) can get the feedback from OSM contributions to
improve
data accuracy.  I will be happy to discuss how best this can be done –
but I
suggest that you and others on this list are much better placed to
propose a
method that works within the framework of OSM.
   
  
  Roger
  
  

[snip]

  
  
  
  
  
  
  I have reported the faults I have found via the
professional
service we run for the DfT for the purpose (http://www.itoworld.com/static/naptan).
I suggest that the DfT/Traveline might consider making this interface
available
to OSM mapping people to do the same or opening up a public version.
  
  
   
  
  
  It will be useful in time to run a comparison
between the
current NaPTAN and the current OSM and produce reports of where they
are
diverging. We would need the permission of the department to take a cut
of the
NaPTAN data before each run but I think they would be supportive.
  
  
   
  
  

Sorry for the last post - finger trouble.

So it seems that feeding back to NaPTAN would be good since they are
interested in these improvements.  As such we need to find all of the
differences, including position changes.  This still leaves us with the
question: do we amend the naptan: tags or add our own to show the
changes?  What did the West Midlands guys do?

Cheers, Chris



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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops

[Chris Hill]

> I believe that we are of the opinion that the naptan tags are useful 
> but only relevant to the UK and I don't think anyone is suggesting 
> that an import of data from Portland or Washington DC should use these 
> NaPTAN tags. So, do we need tags in the real OSM namespace tags for 
> all the main elements of NaPTAN that we need to use (for example 
> bearing from naptan:bearing, indicator from naptan:indicator and 
> local_ref from naptan:ATCO_code?). In some cases these will be copies 
> of the naptan namespace data for the UK. For other imports it might 
> using GTFS or other formats might use ia GTFS namespace for the 
> imported data and then the same tags as for NaPTAN for the main OSM tags.
>
> If that is the case then we should leave the naptan information alone 
> and only adjust the OSM tags. The only problem is that some of those 
> fields are not current populated or even defined in OSM (for example 
> bearing).
>
> For now I have changing the NaPTAN fields where I consider that they 
> are wrong because we can spot that sort of thing in an refresh import 
> of NaPTAN.
>
> For a future 'refresh import' of NaPTAN the rule could be that we 
> replace the data in the NaPTAN namespace (noting any changes in a log 
> that is made available to the local community) and then notice where 
> there are conflicts between OSM changes and official changes within 
> the tags in the OSM namespace. Where the NapTAN data has changed but 
> the OSM tags still match the naptan tags then the OSM tags can be 
> updated, Where the OSM tags are no longer the same as the NaPTAN tags 
> then that would be a 'conflict' and would need to deal with manually.
>
> If this is what we want then we should get it onto the wiki.
>
OK, I'm not going to change any of the naptan tags.  I'm going to record 
any errors / changes separately, noting which ones I move too.  I may 
create a wiki page, but it might be a long list and that would be just 
for one city - I'm starting with a spreadsheet.  If we decide to change 
the naptan fields I'll do that later, if we choose to add extra OSM 
fields then again I'll do that later from my list.  If there is a route 
to feed into NaPTAN directly then I can format my list into what they 
want. If any of this works well then we can give ideas to others that 
follow.

I have contacted the Hull City Council about what I'm doing.  One way to 
correct the data is for them to update their records that must then 
filter through to NaPTAN.  I'll see if they are interested after the 
weekend.  When I get around to processing the East Riding I already have 
a contact there.


Cheers, Chris

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[Talk-transit] NaPTAN import

[Chris Hill]

After a brief exchange with a senior public transport officer from a 
local council I realized that I don't know what date the NaPTAN data 
relates to.  Can anyone help?

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] One last question (for now)

[Chris Hill]

I thought we had agreed not to change the NaPTAN fields until an update 
process had been agreed. My only exceptions to this are to remove the 
naptan:verified=no field (not a real NaPTAN field) and to move the stop 
to a location that is more accurate, since the location rendered on maps 
benefits from being correct. I record differences in a note= tag, and 
record any discrepancies in a separate list.

Any stops that are missing I add physically_present=no and remove the 
highway=bus_stop tag (as per the wiki), add a note and update my list.

If the name, bearing etc are wrong I add this to the note and record 
it.  If we want a name field ('The Range' rather than 'B&Q') we have a 
name field to use, or invent stop_name rather than adjusting the NaPTAN 
fields.  When we reload this data in the future we don't yet know what 
basis the matching might be on, since there are discrepancies with the 
AtcoCode we may need other fields too.

I have sent my first set of comments (~25% of the stops) to Hull 
council's transport team for their comments and analysis.

Cheers, Chris

Peter Miller wrote:
> On 7 Sep 2009, at 09:46, Ed Loach wrote:
>
>   
>> Is it worth questioning the stop names? The ones named "B&Q" in  
>> Clacton for example are outside their old site (now "The Range"), as  
>> B&Q moved to new premises about 5 years ago. I've not yet been to  
>> the B&Q stops to see if they have the name on (some stops around  
>> here do, some don't - and these are two I've not yet checked).
>> 
>
> One of the motivations for adding NaPTAN data to OSM was to get a new  
> feedback path for differences. There are of course licensing  
> restrictions about using data from OSM to improve a (c) Crown dataset,  
> but the list of places where there is a difference of opinion is of  
> considerable use.
>
> Also, OSM aims to be better that official data so we need to make such  
> that is the case and that we can lead with data accuracy, and not just  
> wait for the official data to be correct which might take some time  
> (in my county I have issues I reported 3 months ago that are still not  
> resolved).
>
> As such I think we need to agree on how we deal with discrepences.
>
> How about the following:
>
> Situation: One finds at stop in reality that does not exist in NaPTAN.
> Response: Add it to OSM with highway=bus_stop, shelter=yes/no etc,  
> note='not in NaPTAN 7 Sept 2009'
>
> Situation: NaPTAN says it is a marked bus stops but there is no sign  
> of a pole
> Response: removed highway=bus_stop tag and add a note, for example  
> note=no sigh of this one on the ground'
>
> Situation: NaPTAN says it is customary, but actually it is marked
> Response: Should we have a tag stop_type which can reflect the NaPTAN  
> types, ie customary, marked, hail and ride etc? For now I have been  
> changing the naptan tag
>
> Situation: The bearing doesn't match the road and the description
> Response: For now I have been changing the bearing in NaPTAN field,  
> but I think we need a proper bearing field. Possibly we should add a  
> bearing field and populate it if the is different
>
> Situation: The name of the flag is not the name in NaPTAN
> Response: at it as alt_name
>
> more?
>
>
> We can then run a script from time to time to compare the current  
> state of the two datasets and create reports for either party of the  
> discrepancies.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Peter Miller
>
>
>
>
>   
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>
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[Talk-transit] Bus stop map

[Chris Hill]

I have been trying to keep track of NaPTAN bus stops that have been 
verified in Hull.  I have just roughed up an overlay for the map with 
icons to show progress. [1]

It uses a text file that I extracted from a download from the geofabrik 
download pages.  It has 1300 markers, so it takes a moment to load.  If 
anyone is interested I could make make the code (such as it is) 
available, or extend this to other areas.

[1] http://bus.raggedred.net/

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus stop map

[Chris Hill]

It was partly because I struggled with NOVAM that I knocked up this 
overlay.  I couldn't reconcile the NOVAM rules with the stops I have 
checked and I couldn't get the NOVAM map to print, so I couldn't take a 
paper reference out to use on the ground.

I also needed an up-to-date map to show the local council what's going on.

Cheers, Chris

Thomas Wood wrote:
> The Mappa Mercia guys have their NOVAM[1] tool available UK-wide, it
> updates fairly regularly.
>
> However, it has some issues with deciding how to render stops. Since
> its following the Birmingham-style default-off tagging scheme rather
> than default-on that every other county (to date) has requested.
>
> [1] http://www.mappa-mercia.org/cgi-bin/novam.wsgi/viewer.html
>
> 2009/9/22 Chris Hill :
>   
>> I have been trying to keep track of NaPTAN bus stops that have been
>> verified in Hull.  I have just roughed up an overlay for the map with
>> icons to show progress. [1]
>>
>> It uses a text file that I extracted from a download from the geofabrik
>> download pages.  It has 1300 markers, so it takes a moment to load.  If
>> anyone is interested I could make make the code (such as it is)
>> available, or extend this to other areas.
>>
>> [1] http://bus.raggedred.net/
>>
>> Cheers, Chris
>>
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>> 
>
>
>
>   


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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus stop map

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> Chris Hill  schrieb:
>
>   
>> It was partly because I struggled with NOVAM that I knocked up this 
>> overlay.  I couldn't reconcile the NOVAM rules with the stops I have 
>> checked 
>> 
>
> As Thomas already said the rules were based on the tagging scheme from
> the Birmingham import. They were also devised with the idea of
> implementing a web-based bus-stops merging tool. However this idea has
> been dropped as it is very easy to "merge" bus stops within josm.
>
> I discussed a change of the colour scheme with Peter Miller a couple of
> weeks ago on the West Midlands list:
>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2009-September/000342.html
>
> At the moment I am moving to a new server and do not have time to do
> any changes on NOVAM. But I plan to implement new rules in October.
>
> It would be interesting to know which rules you used for your overlay.
>   
There are 5 possible outcomes:

* No highway=bus_stop, but there is a naptan:AtcoCode => naptan that
  is not on the ground (green bus with X over it)
* highway=bus_stop and naptan:verified=no => not yet checked (red bus)
* highway=bus_stop and no naptan:AtcoCode => real stop not in naptan
  (blue bus)
* highway=bus_stop and naptan:verified != no and note=* => stop
  checked with a problem, such as bearing wrong (cyan bus)
* highway=bus_stop and naptan:verified != no and no note => stop
  checked and OK (green bus)

This suits the data I have and the way I want to use it, i.e. find stops 
to check then show others the stops that don't match their NaPTAN data 
for whatever reason.

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Boehme wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be 
> found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old links and 
> booksmarks.
>
> Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the website 
> I have removed most of the old user interface elements and made the 
> NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss any 
> functionality from the old user interface.
>
> I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>   
Thanks Christoph.  How do I find what what tags are needed to be 
completely tagged? The page still won't print (produces a largely blank 
page from FF3) which is valuable for taking out to find stops yet to be 
checked.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study

[Chris Hill]

Christopher Osborne wrote:
> Hello all
>
> As part of the data.gov.uk  experiments, I had 
> several encounters with top brass of various gov departments. They 
> were very excited in the NaPTAN import, none of them had heard about 
> it and as far as I know it is the first example of crowdsourced 
> improvements to a UK gov dataset.
>
> Very glad to see http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ is back online today. 
> I need to prepare some briefing information to send back to top brass, 
> and was wondering where are some good locations to show off the great 
> work OSMappers have been doing with the NaPTAN data?
>
> -- 
> Christopher Osborne
> www.itoworld.com 
We have checked about 75% of the stops in Hull. I have established a 
contact in the city council's transport team who has received the data 
we have checked with all of our comments about what we found so far.  I 
hope he will use the data to feed back to NaPTAN so eventually the 
quality will improve all round. 

I created a simple overlay for the city http://bus.raggedred.net to help 
to show the progress but also to highlight stops that we have found that 
need correction to the NaPTAN data. I like the idea and the look of 
NOVAM, esp. because it is national and updates regularly, but it doesn't 
yet show quite what I need to help the council team.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Boehme wrote:
> Chris Hill  wrote:
>   
>> Christopher Osborne wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello all
>>>
>>> As part of the data.gov.uk <http://data.gov.uk> experiments, I had 
>>> several encounters with top brass of various gov departments. They 
>>> were very excited in the NaPTAN import, none of them had heard
>>> about it and as far as I know it is the first example of
>>> crowdsourced improvements to a UK gov dataset.
>>>
>>> Very glad to see http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ is back online
>>> today. I need to prepare some briefing information to send back to
>>> top brass, and was wondering where are some good locations to show
>>> off the great work OSMappers have been doing with the NaPTAN data?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Christopher Osborne
>>> www.itoworld.com <http://www.itoworld.com>
>>>   
>> We have checked about 75% of the stops in Hull. I have established a 
>> contact in the city council's transport team who has received the
>> data we have checked with all of our comments about what we found so
>> far.  I hope he will use the data to feed back to NaPTAN so
>> eventually the quality will improve all round. 
>>
>> I created a simple overlay for the city http://bus.raggedred.net to
>> help to show the progress but also to highlight stops that we have
>> found that need correction to the NaPTAN data. I like the idea and
>> the look of NOVAM, esp. because it is national and updates regularly,
>> but it doesn't yet show quite what I need to help the council team.
>> 
>
> Do you think the planned changes to the colour scheme will make it more
> helpful?
>   
The thing I think might be missing is that I differentiate stops that 
have a note=*.  These are the stops that I have checked, have all the 
NaPTAN tags you would expect, but one or more is in error, such as the 
bearing.  I don't change the NaPTAN tag (as discussed some time earlier) 
but add a note= tag with the thing(s) I find wrong, including if I moved 
the stop because I was sure it was in the wrong place.  If you check my 
overlay these are the cyan coloured stops.  Click on one and you will 
see the note.  My overlay is a lashup so I would really like to see 
NOVAM  working well.
> I should perhaps also note that NOVAM is not working (properly) in
> Internet Explorer (anothrer thing I need to look into).
>   
That could be a problem for councils' transport teams who probably 
mostly use IE.
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>   
>> Cheers, Chris
>>
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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study

[Chris Hill]

I forgot to add: I agree with Peter, please drop the route_ref tag as a 
requirement for completed stops.  Most of the stops in Hull have no 
route info on the stop signs.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> I've updated Novam. It now supports multiple colour schemes and also
> highlights errors in the tagging of stops.
>
> At the moment three colour schemes are defined:
>
> 1. The original Birmingham one
> 2. Chris Hill's colour scheme for Hull (with slightly different colours
> though)
> 3. Peter Miller's colour scheme which should work for most of the UK
> (please tell me if you rather not have the colour scheme named after
> you)
>
> These colour schemes should work but they might need some fine tuning.
>
> Additional colour schemes can easily be added. If you are interested in
> writing one have a look at [1]. The file lacks documentation but it
> should be clear from the three existing schemes how schemes are defined.
>
> Christoph
>
> [1] http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/scripts/Novam/Schemes.js
>   

Thanks Christoph, I like my eponymous scheme - it does just what I need 
it to do. Seeing the tags on a selected stop is particularly easy.

I would like the colour of the purple and grey tags to be a bit more 
distinct. May I suggest that the stops with a note tag (currently 
purple) be changed to orange so they stand out?

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Ed Loach wrote:
> I forgot to say when I was asking about bus shelters how much I like
> the changes as they are. It works so much better in this area to let
> me see which I've verified, even if they aren't green (I'm tempted
> to just pull all the local bus stop nodes without the
> naptan:verified key, and without a shelter key into a JOSM selection
> and add shelter=no for now...)
>   
... which is what I did.

Sadly the NOVAM doesn't seem to load in IE yet.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> Chris Hill  schrieb:
>
>   
>> Christoph Böhme wrote:
>> 
>>> I've updated Novam. It now supports multiple colour schemes and also
>>> highlights errors in the tagging of stops.
>>>
>>> At the moment three colour schemes are defined:
>>>
>>> 1. The original Birmingham one
>>> 2. Chris Hill's colour scheme for Hull (with slightly different
>>> colours though)
>>> 3. Peter Miller's colour scheme which should work for most of the UK
>>> (please tell me if you rather not have the colour scheme named after
>>> you)
>>>
>>> These colour schemes should work but they might need some fine
>>> tuning.
>>>
>>> Additional colour schemes can easily be added. If you are
>>> interested in writing one have a look at [1]. The file lacks
>>> documentation but it should be clear from the three existing
>>> schemes how schemes are defined.
>>>
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>> [1] http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/scripts/Novam/Schemes.js
>>>   
>>>   
>> Thanks Christoph, I like my eponymous scheme - it does just what I
>> need it to do. Seeing the tags on a selected stop is particularly
>> easy.
>>
>> I would like the colour of the purple and grey tags to be a bit more 
>> distinct. May I suggest that the stops with a note tag (currently 
>> purple) be changed to orange so they stand out?
>> 
>
> Grey and purple were indeed a bit similar. Orange looks much better.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>   
Errr, I think something has broken ...

The right hand panel is blank now and all the icons are grey.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

>> Sadly the NOVAM doesn't seem to load in IE yet.
>> 
>
> Yes, that really needs to be sorted out. It is just so much less
> interesting than adding new features. If you want to, you can give it a
> try. I can send you the source code. It is just javascript which should
> run locally without a webserver. The bus stops can simply be queried
> from the mappa-mercia server. At the moment IE8 is complaining about an
> error in OpenLayers when initialising NOVAM. This, stops it from
> working. Perhaps this can be fixed relatively easily.
>   

I'll gladly take a look, maybe my creaky JavaScript would benefit from a 
workout.  If you send it to me or let me know the code to download I'll 
take a look. I do need to run it on an old machine, I've just zapped 
Vista so no IE on my usual laptop (blog )

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> And another update of NOVAM:
>
> - Internet Explorer 8 should now work (make sure it is not in
>   compatibility mode). It is quite slow though compared to the other
>   browsers.
>   
I'll try this out later.
> - The naptan:Bearing tag is used to show an arrow on the bus stop icons
>   indicating the direction of busses stopping at a stop.
>   
Nice :-)
> - Added a stylesheet for printing. It should work in Firefox. Opera and
>   IE do not display the vector overlay on the printout :(
>   
Prints a blank page on FF 3.0.15 (actually only prints page headers).
> - Added "Edit in JOSM" link. This requires the JOSM remote control
>   plugin to work.
>   
S'good.
> - The current node will be automatically selected when opening Potlatch
>   (thanks Shaun). Also, there will be a warning if the Potlatch window
>   is already open.
>
> - The current colour scheme is now included in the permalink.
>   
Useful
> - Cookies now expire after 60 days instead of at the end of the session.
>
> - The Birmingham scheme is now longer displaying stops as completed
>   despite them still having "naptan:unverified=yes".
>
> - shelter=no is no longer a required tag in the "Peter Miller" scheme.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> Christoph Böhme  schrieb:
>   
Nice improvements, especially like the bearing arrows.
cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> Shaun McDonald  schrieb:
>
>   
>> On 1 Nov 2009, at 17:58, Chris Hill wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Christoph Böhme wrote:
>>>   
>>>> And another update of NOVAM:
>>>>
>>>> - Internet Explorer 8 should now work (make sure it is not in
>>>>  compatibility mode). It is quite slow though compared to the other
>>>>  browsers.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> I'll try this out later.
>>>   
>>>> - The naptan:Bearing tag is used to show an arrow on the bus stop  
>>>> icons
>>>>  indicating the direction of busses stopping at a stop.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> Nice :-)
>>>   
>> Yeah, I think TFL need to learn the 8 point compass, as it would
>> make around me look a lot better.
>> http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/?scheme=hull&zoom=16&lat=51.40715&lon=-0.06089&layers=BT
>>
>> Most of the roads there seem to chop and change between north/south  
>> and east/west instead of using ne/sw sw/se etc. which would be more  
>> appropriate in my opinion.
>>
>> 
>>>> - Added a stylesheet for printing. It should work in Firefox.
>>>> Opera and
>>>>  IE do not display the vector overlay on the printout :(
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> Prints a blank page on FF 3.0.15 (actually only prints page
>>> headers).
>>>   
>
> Perhaps I should have said: "it works on Firefox 3.5.2". Anyway, I
> changed the stylesheet and it works now on FF 3.0.11 for me. I reckon
> that it should work on 3.0.15 as well. 
>
> I noticed that there was sometimes some displacement between bus stops
> and map. This goes away if you change from landscape to portrait format
> and back again.
>  

It printed fine in FF 3.1.15 now, thanks.

Cheers, Chris

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[Talk-transit] Bus stops in Hull

[Chris Hill]

I have just checked the last of the list of NaPTAN bus stops in Hull.  
East Yorks next.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Novam colour scheme question

[Chris Hill]

Peter Miller wrote:
> On 11 Nov 2009, at 16:23, Ed Loach wrote:
>
>   
>> Looking at the bus stops I've verified, and in particular ones on  
>> roads where I've verified some but not others, would it be possible  
>> to have a different colour (I'm using Peter Miller scheme at  
>> present) for unverified stops with type CUS? I can't think of any  
>> easy way of verifying those other than hang around all day hoping  
>> someone will get on or off (or perhaps trying to get on at one and  
>> trying to get off at another).
>> 
>
> I was going to suggest that the 'Peter Miller' style was retired and  
> that we use the Hull standard as a starting point - I have moved to  
> use Chris's style personally. Anyone feel strongly about it?
>   
Of course I'm happy with the Hull scheme.  There are no CUS stops in 
Hull afaik, but adding an extra colour for that is fine.  I'm not sure 
how you check CUS stops if there's no pole etc. and buses don't always 
stop.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Novam colour scheme question

[Chris Hill]

Ed Loach wrote:
> Recently I wrote (re CUStomary stops):
>
>   
>> I can't
>> think of any easy way of verifying those other than hang around
>> all day hoping someone will get on or off (or perhaps trying to
>> get on at one and trying to get off at another).
>> 
>
> I saw Peter's suggestion about getting drivers arguing, but thought
> I'd add that while out checking stops at the weekend I noticed that
> during the recent programme of raising kerbs at bus stops in this
> area they seem to have raised them for a number of the CUS stops
> too, making those easier to verify than I had been expecting. Still
> quite a few that aren't though.
>
> Ed
>
>   
I have just started to check the stops in East Yorkshire, where there 
are 130+ CUS stops.  I deliberately went to check the nearest CUS stop 
to see what clues there were, only to find it had a sign like any other 
stop.  I guess it has been converted.  EY stops have a number of paired 
stops with only one sign labelled 'and opposite' for the other stop and 
nearly 50% so far don't display the AtcoCode at the stop.  Their 
positions seem very accurate.

Cheers, Chris

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[Talk-transit] East Yorkshire NaPTAN data

[Chris Hill]

I have contacted the East Riding of Yorkshire council about NaPTAN 
data.  They would welcome our feedback about the quality of NaPTAN in 
the county.  The mappers in the county have checked about 20% so far, so 
I expect to be able to send this feedback early next year.

The quality of the data is good, positions are generally good, but a 
high proportion of the signs do not have the AtcoCode on them. 

I want to get the local bus companies involved in helping with bus 
routes, but so far they have all not responded.  Has anyone else made 
any such contact with bus companies?


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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN London bus stop oddities

[Chris Hill]

I have contacted the local council for both Hull and East Yorkshire to 
ask if they were interested in what we find as we verify the NaPTAN 
stops, and both are.  You could ask the council or authority concerned 
if they want any feedback.  I started by sending an email to the general 
contact point for the council and ended up talking to the relevant 
person in each council.  They were both friendly and interested.  I have 
sent the completed list to Hull as a spreadsheet.  We are working 
through the stops in East Yorks and will do the same.  We record any 
anomalies in a note=* tag.  AndrewArm has developed a database and 
reporting system to extract the details and produce a CSV file to import 
into a spreadsheet to send to the council when we have finished.  The 
council liked the idea of spreadsheets rather than any other form of data.

We record stops that are missing, wrongly placed, have the wrong 
bearing, have the wrong AtcoCode, have the wrong street name, have the 
AtcoCode missing and any other anomaly, including wrong names and 
landmarks.  We have offered to give the lon, lat of stops that we think 
are wrongly placed.  We don't change any NaPTAN: fields, except 
verified.  Stops here don't have names on usually, but I would change 
the name=* tag to match a name on a stop if there was one.

I am confident that our feedback will improve the NaPTAN data from both 
councils, maybe other councils might like to join in.  It does open up 
another front to talk to councils about OSM too.

Cheers, Chris

Richard Mann wrote:
> I've found quite a few like this (in Oxford). I just change the name 
> tag to what's on the stop, and put the stop letter in local_ref. I've 
> never yet found one where the indicator letter was actually part of 
> the stop name.
>  
> It's up to the Naptan experts to extract any differences (between name 
> and naptan:commonname) and decide whether/when to update Naptan 
> accordingly.
>  
> Richard
>
>  
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Bryce McKinlay  > wrote:
>
> In the London NaPTAN data I have found some groups of stops that seem
> to have indicator letters appended to the stop name. I think this is
> erroneous as, as far as I know, these extra letters do not appear on
> any timetables or signs. A list follows. Perhaps someone can forward
> this to the appropriate upstream agency for correction.
>
> Acton Old Town Hall F G
> Acton Old Town Hall K L
> Beckenham Junction Stn C D
> Bow Church E G J K L
> Bromley By Bow Station W
> Bunkers HillThe White Cross N
> Bunkers HillThe White Cross S
> Camberwell Green E F
> Camden High Street E J
> Carterhatch Lane N
> Chislehurst War Memorial R S T
> Clapham Common Station A B
> Clapham Common Station C R
> Colliers Wood Station B
> Colliers Wood Station C
> Ealing Hospital R S U
> Ealing Hospital T
> Edmonton Green Station R S
> Gipsy Corner O P
> Gipsy Corner R S T
> Greenford Station B
> Grove Park Station G
> Hammersmith Bus Station Y Z
> Harrow Town Centre L M
> Harrow Town Centre R T
> Herne Hill D E
> Ilford Station D
> Kings Crescent Estate J
> Kings Crescent Estate K U
> Lea Bridge Roundabout B
> Lea Bridge Roundabout E L M
> Leytonstone Station A B C
> Mill Hill Broadway Station F
> MoorgateFinsbury Sq C D K
> MoorgateFinsbury Sq F G H J
> Muswell Hill Broadway A B
> Muswell Hill Broadway C D
> Muswell Hill Broadway E F H
> North FinchleyTally Ho Co D I
> North FinchleyTally Ho Co K Z
> Northwood Hills Circus C
> Northwood Hills Circus E
> Northwood Hills Circus K J
> Notting Hill Gate Station B C
> Notting Hill Gate Station D E
> Notting Hill Gate Station M N
> Old Street Station C
> Old Street Station M N
> Oxford Circus E R X
> Pinner Station C E
> Prince of Wales Road N
> Putney Bridge Station U
> Romford Station L
> South Harrow Station A B
> Southside Shopping Centre S N
> Swiss Cottage Station L M
> Tally Ho Corner K
> Tolworth Broadway F G
> Tooting Broadway Station B
> Turnpike Lane Station U Y
> Upminster Station B C
> William Ellis School F
> William Ellis School M
> Wood Green Bus Garage C
>
> Also, in Lewisham there seems to be two "Dartmouth Hill" stops listed
> both with the indicator "H"?
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] London stops missing naptan:indicator tags

[Chris Hill]

Bryce McKinlay wrote:
> Recently I noticed a cluster of London bus stops from NapTAN which 
> were missing indicator/stop_ref fields. I'm sure there are many more 
> of these. I'm wondering about the best practice when making 
> corrections or adding missing data which will ensure that these 
> changes can be noticed by NapTAN folks and corrected upstream?
>
> What I have done for now is added the missing "stop_ref" field, but 
> not changed any of the naptan fields. Is this enough to get a change 
> noticed, or should "corrected" nodes from NapTAN be tagged in some 
> other way? Obviously it would be better to have some sort of 
> automation here rather than having to send email notifications to this 
> list or elsewhere when a change is made.

In East Yorkshire's data we add a note=* with any missing or anomalous 
data.  AndrewArm extracts this data and when the county's stops have all 
been checked we will send this data to the Transport Team in the local 
council so they can update NaPTAN.  Maybe you could try contacting the 
local authority responsible for the stops and ask them if they want your 
findings.


Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] swiss stations

[Chris Hill]

datendelphin wrote:
> Hello
>
> The swiss government has an official list of train, tram and bus stops.
> I am now working on merging the data with the OSM data. For those who
> are interested, I plotted the coverage of OSM today, compared to this
> list. You can find the plot on the wiki
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/DIDOK
>   
Elsewhere on the site it states that the information is Copyright: 
Authorities of the Swiss Confederation, 2006.

I think that you need to get written permission to use these data.  OSM 
needs to remain very clean over the import of data to be sure that we 
have the right to use this.  If you are not sure, don't import it.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

[Chris Hill]

I would certainly hope that any updates are not used to overwrite 
existing local edits. I have spent far too many hours checking and 
updating the data to have a newer version overwrite it. A smart merge 
would be more useful, I would write it if required.

As too 'dumping in' the remaining county data I would prefer that it is 
handled locally where possible. The NaPTAN data is useful and good in 
parts but needs checking and improving too.

I think too much data is imported just because it is available - I 
prefer imports to add value. NaPTAN can add value but that is best 
realised by someone local to the import managing it.

Cheers, Chris

Roger Slevin wrote:
> Thomas
>
> If you want a refresh of the NaPTAN dataset, then just ask me  and I
> will arrange for this be made available.  I appreciate that this could be a
> two-edged sword  it would update the data, but in the areas where work
> has already been done on the data from a year ago, it may over-write any
> local edits made to that data - or has this already been taken into account,
> so that new data would sit alongside existing data and would only be
> accepted if it is appropriate at each location?
>
> Cheers
>
> Roger
>
> -Original Message-
> From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
> [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wood
> Sent: 13 March 2010 12:45 PM
> To: osm; OSM - Talk GB
> Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?
>
> Hello all,
> It's now been more than a year since we got permission to import the
> NaPTAN dataset, so far only 53 of the 143 counties that we have the
> data for have been imported.
>
> So, in short, is it time for the rest to be dumped in?
>
> Discussion please.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

[Chris Hill]

Thomas Wood wrote:
> On 13 March 2010 17:25, Chris Hill  wrote:
>   
>> ... NaPTAN can add value but that is best
>> realised by someone local to the import managing it.
>> 
>
> I would argue that NaPTAN does add value in undermapped parts of the
> country - the vast majority of NaPTAN stops are correct.
>
>   
I agree that NaPTAN can and does add value and I expect that the data 
will get imported. Peter's suggestion of using more up-to-date data for 
the areas that have not yet been imported makes good sense.

In response to your request for a discussion, I wanted to point out that 
there are errors in the data and these errors are usually only corrected 
by someone checking the stops on the ground.  Most of the errors I have 
found in the 2100 stops I've checked are not related to position, but 
about 6% of all these stops were missing on the ground.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] NaPTAN - Time for the rest?

[Chris Hill]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
>
> I found the time (or rather an easier solution to the problem): NOVAM
> now uses the XAPI servers to retrieve the bus stop data. So, it should
> be up-to-date again and hopefully in the future as well :-)
>   
Good news, I have missed it.
Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus stops missing in Cornwall

[Chris Hill]

Shaun McDonald wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A couple of weeks back I took a week end trip walking from Penzance to Lands 
> End, on the way taking plenty of photos, some of which were of bus stops.
>
> The first problem I've found is that none of them seem to have a naptan code 
> on them. Then there are several that I have found that have a flag on the 
> ground, that looks like it's been there for a few years at least, with up to 
> date timetable information, so it is still in use, yet there is nothing in 
> the naptan data that has just been imported a couple of nights ago?
>
> Should just add the bus stop with the tag naptan=missing? Then someone can 
> pull out all those bus stops at some point to see what's going on?
>
>   
I would add the stop with shelter=yes|no and any other stuff. Just by 
missing off any Naptan fields makes it clear that it's not a naptan 
stop. The NOVAM pages pick these up already. I think there are a few of 
these in many counties.

Cheers, Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath

[Chris Hill]

The imports are not auto-merged. There is the NOVAM viewer: 
http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ which helps compare the existing and 
imported stops. There are guidelines for dealing with the process of 
checking and merging stops too: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Surveying_and_Merging_NaPTAN_and_OSM_data

When I started in Hull I contacted the local council transport team (who 
maintain the data that ends up in NaPTAN) and they were interested in 
any feedback about the state of their stops. Your council might be 
interested too.

Cheers, Chris

Tim Francois wrote:
> Tom,
>
> This has probably been covered countless times: what about those bus stops
> (the few!) which are there already in OSM - will these be auto-detected an
> not imported?
>
> Thanks for the quick response!
>
> Tim
>
> -Original Message-
> From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org
> [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Wood
> Sent: 12 April 2010 17:31
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Bus Stops in Bath
>
> Tim Francois wrote:
>   
>> Hi guys,
>>  
>> I assume this is the appropriate 'forum' for discussing NAPTAN import 
>> requests?
>>  
>> I recently requested that any data be imported or made available for 
>> Bath (ATCO: 018) at the wiki 
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import.
>> 
>
> My apologies, I've not been watching that page for changes closely recently.
>
>   
>> Is the wiki still monitored, or should I have just asked on here? 
>> Also, how old is this data? The centre has been completely re-vamped 
>> over the past 3 years, so bus stops have moved since then 
>> (notwithstanding that the main bus station has moved location also, 
>> but this has already been changed in OSM a long time ago!).
>>  
>> Thanks
>> Tim
>> 
>
> The data that will be imported is from July/August last year. Updates to
> this data in OSM are planned at some point in the future, but it'll probably
> be easiest to do it under the assumption that all NaPTAN data in OSM was
> from the same dump.
>
> I'll get ahead with importing Bath now.
>
> Tom
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites

[Chris Hill]

Taking data in small parts, hoping no one will complain is not the way 
to do it. Get written permission to use the data in a way that is 
compatible to OSM, or leave it alone.

--

Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


On 06/12/10 13:13, Andrei Klochko wrote:

Ok, finally someone that really knows the case! so. First, if it is
like that, then a proper authorization to use the timetables and
routes, one by one, granted by veolia, keolis and transdev would do
for a great amount of pt companies in france. Correct? I happen to
have contacted veolia's director of developpement and innovation, who,
verbally, i know, told me that no o'e would ever oppose me, at least
in veolia, for taking these timetables, one by one, from all
subsidiary transporters' sites. The same for routes. If i cannot trust
this kind of saying...then, who can i trust? For more technical
details, i will send you another email, as i'm still better in french
than in english, especially for such technical language... but thank
you for someone from french pt answering, at last!

Le lundi 6 décembre 2010, Jacques Lys  a écrit :

Hello,
I'm afraid you're wrong : Transit data are generally not freely available in France.You 
should know that legally, PT are the responsibility of local authorities. In fact these 
authorities entrust the operation of PT networks to companies which are often 
subsidiaries of three major groups (Keolis, Transdev and Veolia ... soon 2 because 
Transdev and Veolia are expected to merge!) through "Delegations de Service 
Public" (Delegations of Public Service) concluded for a fixed period (often 10 
years).

In fact, PT data are most often seen by agencies as being critical data they have to 
protect while submitting tender for "Delegation de Service Public".
Contrary to what you seem to believe, nobody enjoys 'nice governmental jobs' in 
French PT (almost all agencies are under common law...) and it's not by simple 
jealousy that employees wanting to protect their jobs refuse to submit data!

Fortunately, for some time, the trend seems to be in setting PT data free : local 
authorities are more and more seeing themselves as the PT data owners and some of them 
are planning to make those data freely available to the public. That is what comes just 
to be done in Rennes (Brittany), where the "Communauté d'Agglomération 
Rennes-Métropole" recently proposed data in GTFS format 
(http://www.nosdonnees.fr/package/donnees-transport-rennes-metropole).

The times they are a-Changin', even in France !
Cordialement.
Jacques LysOpenStreetMap Contributor IT Manager in a French Transit Agency




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Re: [Talk-transit] Public transport proposal

[Chris Hill]

After reading the complexity of the proposal for something as simple as 
a bus stop I thought I should stress something that I believe as 
important: Mappers are precious.


There has been some discussion on IRC about this proposal and these are 
few of the  comments:


/These proposal-twiddlers completely miss the point about how precious 
mappers are. I've checked about 2000 bus stops - I would have done about 
10 if I had to mangle a relation each time.


"highway=bus_stop beside the way causes extra preprocessing for routing 
software. ".. so?


"highway=bus_stop beside the way " = easy to map

well, any place the node is added is easy. let Intel and AMD worry about 
the rest


the thing about these "we must have neat structures for routing 
software" [people] is that _none_ of them have ever written any routing 
software/


There were no supportive comments. Please remember this is a mapping 
project, not an IT project. Ease of editing is the key to getting data 
and without data we are all sunk.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

[Chris Hill]

I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on 
submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I checked 
about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of thousand bus stops 
because the quality was so poor. Locations were missing, in hopelessly wrong 
places and the meta data was often wrong. The local authorities here don't seem 
to believe in sharing data so you may have a completely different result. If 
you plan to survey some or all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to 
find them is useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality 
before any import.

You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people think, 
this ml doesn't have a wide audience

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 10:43:20 GMT+01:00, Stephen Dawkins  wrote:
>Hi
>
>I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I
>noticed
>that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to
>bulk
>importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?
>
>Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but
>surely it's better than having no data at all.
>
>For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their
>NaPTAN
>identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the
>existing data is probably more accurate).
>
>I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing
>this?
>
>Thanks & Regards
>Stephen
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

[Chris Hill]

I offered my survey data to Hull CC and East Riding of Yorkshire council. Both 
were not interested. This was when I did my surveys, so some time ago. I guess 
they don't understand that crowd-sourcing can produce valuable data. They 
certainly both are highly resistant to releasing any data as open data unless 
they are forced to do so. Maybe this attitude drives their data quality too.

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 11:21:39 GMT+01:00, Roger Slevin  wrote:
>I am surprised to hear that the current NaPTAN data (which is
>continually updated) has errors in it – and I wonder therefore if the
>problem may lie in the updating of NaPTAN data in OSM.  The original
>upload of NaPTAN to OSM was done about five years ago – and therefore
>it would not be surprising to find stops missing or ones that have
>moved in the meantime.
>
> 
>
>I believe that Brighton & Hove are good at maintaining the data in
>NaPTAN – but their idea of precision and yours may differ (as for
>public transport information we can be tolerant of slightly imprecise
>locations).  So you should use the latest version of NaPTAN and I can
>supply a copy in XML or CSV format if that would help.
>
> 
>
>Best wishes
>
> 
>
>Roger Slevin
>
>Traveline south east & anglia
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: Chris Hill [mailto:o...@raggedred.net] 
>Sent: 30 June 2015 10:58
>To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; Stephen
>Dawkins
>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK
>
> 
>
>I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on
>submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I
>checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of
>thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were
>missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong.
>The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you
>may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or
>all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is
>useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality
>before any import.
>
>You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people
>think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience
>
>Cheers, Chris


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