Re: [Talk-transit] Historic railways and route=train - is this good practice?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

2 Sep 2021, 20:08 by skqu...@rushpost.com:

> On 9/2/21 12:03, Tony Shield wrote:
>
>> Guys
>>
>> Wandering through OPNVKarte I noted a railway line running through
>> Kielder Water - an impossibility, further investigation showed the
>> railway ways as abandoned or razed and part of a relation
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8213509/history , the Riccarton
>> and Hexham railway. I suspect it was being rendered due to the
>> route=train tag being set in the relation even though state=abandoned is
>> present.
>>
>> There is a similar rendering for the similarly abandoned Solway Junction
>> Railway -
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9220571#map=11/54.9165/-3.2530&layers=O
>>
>>
>> As these two railways have long being extinct is it correct for them to
>> be route=train which I regards as current use,  or should they be a new
>> thing such as route=historic?
>>
>
> My gut reaction is to say this doesn't belong in OSM at all, but rather
> OpenHistoricalMap or a similar project.
>
 If there are no traces of such route(route, not rails) I think that 
deletionwould be a good idea.

Though I would try to contact authors ofa relation via changeset comments.

Sadly, some people incorrectly map railstuff that is completely, utterly and 
fullygone in OpenStreetMap instead of 
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Re: [Talk-transit] station=tram in Berlin

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

I would delete such objects.

If someone really want to represent entire 
stop, then there is public_transport=stop_area
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5746202 


Though I would rather ask local community
(Berling or Germany in general)

Dec 7, 2020, 17:10 by talk-transit@openstreetmap.org:

> Hello, mappers!
>
> I’ve noticed that some objects with
>
> railway=halt/station + station=tram
>
> tagging were created recently in Berlin. I know it's uncommon to tag tram 
> stops as railway stations. Overpass query
>
> [out:xml];
> nwr[station=tram];
> out geom;
>
> reveals only 109 such objects worldwide, half of which were created recently 
> in Berlin by two users. Typical example is the node > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8178939810/history#map=19/52.50528/13.61336
>
> Please give your judgement about the situation.
>
> —
> Best regards,
> Alexey [ azakh-world ],
> Maps.me team
>

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Re: [Talk-transit] bus=yes opinion

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Ad thread) bus=yes is not needed if
highway=bus_stop is present

Also public_transport=platform is not
needed anyway, like entire failed pt2
19 paź 2020, 17:54 od mikl...@gmail.com:

> On Saturday, 11 July 2020 23:30:29 HKT Snusmumriken wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2020-07-11 at 02:33 -0300, Agustin Rissoli wrote:
>> > What are your opinion of adding bus=yes along with
>> > public_transport=platform + highway=bus_stop?
>>
>> In the presence of highway=bus_stop I think the bus_yes tag is
>> totally unnecessary.
>>
>>
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>>
>
> I consider the following scenario:
>
> 1. There is no physical stop but it is a generally accepted place to board 
> and 
> alight buses. I map public_transport=platform and bus=yes but not 
> highway=bus_stop
>
> 2. There is a physical bus stop pole but there are no longer any buses using 
> it. I only map highway=bus_stop but not bus=yes there.
>
> Michael
>
> -- 
> Sent from KMail
>

In my opinion:Ad 1) it is also highway=bus_stopAd 2) that would be 
disused:highway=bus_stop
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Re: [Talk-transit] Bus routes in Málaga: Should we add "stop_area" relations?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Jul 18, 2020, 19:17 by dcapil...@gmail.com:

> Hi!
>
> I'll try to check the bus routes in Malagá. [1] I haven't checked them for a 
> long time because I have been busy with other mapping tasks and because there 
> were many changes in the central area of Málaga. The bus routes changed too 
> often. Now it seems to be stabilizing, there are less and less changes, and I 
> thought it would be a good time to check the mapping. I'd like to ask you 
> something first.
>
> When we started mapping the bus routes in Málaga, Alan Grant and I came to 
> the conclusion that it was not necessary to add "stop_area" relations due to 
> the type of bus stops in Málaga, [2] where there are no actual stop areas 
> (only a stop position in the own road and a pole on the sidewalk usually).
>
> Is that solution correct? Should we add "stop_area" relations at every bus 
> stop position? I would have to create a lot of additional relations, only 
> with the stop position and the platform features. I am not sure if that would 
> be reasonable/useful for any purpose. What do you think?
>
highway=bus_stop node is typically sole useful and needed part of mapping bus 
stop

(additional tags on this node, starting from name are obviously useful)

stop_position, stop_areas and so on are generally not useful, except extremely 
rare cases

I would rather map bus routes than and do other OSM mapping over pointless 
duplicating
of information available thanks to highway=bus_stop
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Re: [Talk-transit] bus stop name

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Jul 17, 2020, 03:15 by talk-transit@openstreetmap.org:

>     In the USA bus stops (flag stops) are located for the most part at named 
> intersections, that is at where the street
>  
> sign is.
>  
>    so you DO know where you are. but on the OSM standard map the bus stop tag 
> depending on the
>  
> editor does not show the route number, can you have the route number on the 
> tag ?
>  
> ​​​the wiki on this seems to be written for a European standard.
>  
>  
>  
>
You can change layer of map (cake / paper sheets button on the right)
and select 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.60203/-122.32333&layers=T
or
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.60203/-122.32333&layers=O
both showing bus lines.
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Re: [Talk-transit] bus=yes opinion

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

It is useless but harm is minimal - just a pointless tag. As long as mapper is 
not removing
actually used highway=bus_stop it should be OK.

Jul 11, 2020, 07:33 by aguztin...@gmail.com:

> What are your opinion of adding bus=yes along with public_transport=platform 
> + highway=bus_stop?
> I can't find info on the wiki that supports this practice, I know it was 
> introduced by iD, but I don't see where this has been discussed.
> My question arises because there is only one user who is adding bus=yes (and 
> train=yes on railway platforms, etc.), to all stops in Argentina, probably 
> correcting the errors that iD marks.
>
>
> Saludos, Agustín.
>
>

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Re: [Talk-transit] bus=yes opinion

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

And I in turn consider public_transport tag family as adding nothing useful and
encouraging pointless duplication.

I would be happy to consider them as deprecated, but I am not sure is there a 
clear support
for that.

And I am certain that most of people would be against deprecating 
highway=bus_stop

Introducing public_transport scheme was a mistake, but introducing it while 
keeping
simpler one made no sense at all.

Jul 11, 2020, 10:31 by ro...@daeneke.at:

> If the highway=bus_stop tag is also being used, it seems quite redundant to 
> me. But I would be all for killing that old tag and only using the new p_t 
> scheme (which sadly was proposed as additional instead of the new norm) and 
> then it would be useful to have the mode=yes tags, as long as the platform is 
> not assigned to at least one route relation. As soon as one eg. bus route 
> contains the platform, the bus=yes is implied and hence redundant. But that 
> would just be my view. 
>
> (The p_t scheme would need a new, forced version that fixes such required 
> double taggings, but that is a topic for another time.)
>
> KR
> RobinD (emergency99)
>
>> Am 11.07.2020 um 07:35 schrieb Agustin Rissoli :
>>
>> 
>> What are your opinion of adding bus=yes along with public_transport=platform 
>> + highway=bus_stop?
>> I can't find info on the wiki that supports this practice, I know it was 
>> introduced by iD, but I don't see where this has been discussed.
>> My question arises because there is only one user who is adding bus=yes (and 
>> train=yes on railway platforms, etc.), to all stops in Argentina, probably 
>> correcting the errors that iD marks.
>>
>>
>> Saludos, Agustín.
>>
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>>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-transit] Making bus lines more specific

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Apr 28, 2020, 22:53 by mailingli...@iivq.net:

> Hello Robin,
>
> I highly agree with you.
> The main reason for PTv2 not having as widespread adoption as it could have 
> is that it is not rendered, that is to say, it is not rendered on OSM_carto 
> (Osmand's rendering of PTv2 is near-perfect).
>
Note that approved PTv2 proposal had explicit

"This proposal does not replace, deprecate or obsolete the already existing and 
well known tags. The usage of the proposed tags is recommended but not 
mandatory."

bus=yes was supposed to be added only to public_transport=stop_position

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Public_Transport&oldid=625726#Platform

Following approved PTv2 proposal requires using highway=bus_stop to identify 
public_transport=platform as bus stop.


And public_transport=platform + bus=yes is neither approved nor more popular 
than highway=bus_stop.

And, at least in my opinion, it is also worse tagging scheme than simple 
highway=bus_stop.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Importing GTFS feed stops in Belo Horizonte, Brazil

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Mar 18, 2020, 15:44 by rockyt...@gmail.com:

> Well, the city website claims it's CC-BY (version not specified), but I
> believe all GTFS feeds are free to use, as it is a requirement of the
> spec, no?
>
Even if that is requirement of the spec (not confirming this!), it
is possible that they published it in violation of that rule.

Or that rule may not exists.

Note also "free to use" is not enough, it is also necessary that (for example)
unlimited and unrestricted modification and distribution is also allowed.

> I remember reading it a few months ago that there was no restriction of
> use for GTFS feeds
>
I am pretty sure that it is not true.

>
> , but I couldn't find it right now. I guess I'll need
> to send an email asking for permission to use the data.
>
Good idea, maybe it is published on license allowing
OSM use.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Importing GTFS feed stops in Belo Horizonte, Brazil

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-transit]

Mar 17, 2020, 23:51 by rockyt...@gmail.com:

> Hello!
>
> I've retrieved the GTFS feed for Belo Horizonte, a city in Brazil, and
> would like to import its bus stops to OSM.
>
What is the license of this data?
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Re: [Talk-transit] Public transport validator+generator from Maps.Me

[Mateusz Konieczny]

30 May 2019, 19:29 by talk-transit@openstreetmap.org:

> Thank you, I’ve not excepted to get so encouraging feedback in so short time. 
> For some reason I haven’t got each reply to my mailbox, but I’ve got them in 
> a «Talk-transit Digest». So let me answer here to all questions.
>
It depends on option selected during registration. You can unsubscribe and 
immediately
subscribe again at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit 

(there is also "edit options" that may work, I always used 
unsubscribe/subscribe to change things
like this)

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Re: [Talk-transit] Public transport validator+generator from Maps.Me

[Mateusz Konieczny]

29 May 2019, 17:35 by talk-transit@openstreetmap.org:

> Hello everybody!
>
> I'm a part of team who worries about public transport status in OSM database, 
> especially rapid transit transport. I want to represent a public transport 
> validator+generator that somebody might find a useful facility. It's open 
> source: 
>
Have you checked whatever some of
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Re: [Talk-transit] Adding highway=bus_stop to nodes with public transport=platform bus=yes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28 May 2019, 16:24 by ja...@piorkowski.ca:

> On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 07:24, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:
>
>> In this bot edit:
>>
>> * Editing is limited to Poland
>> * Editing is limited to nodes with public_transport=platform bus=yes
>> * Nodes with nearby (within 250 meters) highway=bus_stop are ignored[1]
>> * Elements with highway tag are skipped
>> * To remaining highway=bus_stop is added
>>
>
> This seems like a good plan.
>
> I would maybe suggest checking if the platform is a member in a
> stop_area and if that stop_area already includes a highway=bus_stop.
> But I don't know how widely stop_area has been used in Poland.
>
I was unaware that such relation exists, thanks!
Based on my testing ( http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Jq1 
<http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Jq1> ) my query structure
covers it by "Nodes with nearby (within 250 meters) highway=bus_stop are 
ignored"

>> I just noticed during writing a post to this thread about this bot edit that
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct#Document_and_discuss_your_plans
>> has
>> "and if your edit affects a specialist subject, such as oil rigs or public 
>> transport
>> which has its own list then you should also discuss your plans on that 
>> mailing list."
>> ...
>> PS What is the name of mailing list about oil rigs? I am unable to find it on
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo
>>
>
> I guess you could ask the editor of
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct&diff=prev&oldid=1186355
> and > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct&diff=next&oldid=1186548
>  
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct&diff=next&oldid=1186548>
>
Asked. Give age of the edit I am betting that mailing list existed but was 
closed since
that time.

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[Talk-transit] Adding highway=bus_stop to nodes with public transport=platform bus=yes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

In Poland there are some bus stops mapped solely as public transport=platform 
bus=yes
nodes, without highway=bus_stop.

One of local mappers noticed this problem and asked for fixing the problem, 
what resulted in
automatic edit proposal being accepted by a local community as it is considered 
preferable
for bus stops to include standard highway=bus_stop, at least in Poland.

In this bot edit:

* Editing is limited to Poland
* Editing is limited to nodes with public_transport=platform bus=yes
* Nodes with nearby (within 250 meters) highway=bus_stop are ignored[1]* 
Elements with highway tag are skipped
* To remaining highway=bus_stop is added

[1] To handle cases like
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4004954618#map=19/50.04537/19.85997 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1726904219#map=19/50.04537/19.85997 

In this case adding highway=bus_stop would not improve data quality

Documentation page with more detail, including source code is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/add_highway%3Dbus_stop_tag_where_only_public_transport%3Dplatform_bus%3Dyes_is_present_in_Poland
 


I just noticed during writing a post to this thread about this bot edit that 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct#Document_and_discuss_your_plans
 

has
"and if your edit affects a specialist subject, such as oil rigs or public 
transport
which has its own list then you should also discuss your plans on that mailing 
list."

Unfortunately, bot edit was already started and made some modifications.

I am sorry for not doing it before, I stopped script after noticing it and 
submitted this thread.

PS What is the name of mailing list about oil rigs? I am unable to find it on
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo

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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

12 May 2019, 13:54 by mailingli...@iivq.net:

> In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to 
> openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
>
This is undesirable, OSM is not a place to map historic data. When I encounter 
such mismapped
objects I remove them.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Ideas for a simplified public transportation scheme

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7 May 2019, 15:09 by emergenc...@outlook.com: 

>  As it stands, the highway=bus_stop tag is a legacy tag for a node. If the 
> platform is a node, it can be put on there (for legacy sake, although the 
> p_t:v2 scheme suggests to sunset that tag)
>
p_t:v2 scheme was bad idea. highway=bus_stop is the optimal mapping method of 
bus stops,
I would consider bus stop not using it as not mapped properly and add it.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Ideas for a simplified public transportation scheme

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26 Apr 2019, 17:10 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com:

>  1. Sticking to PTv1 tags, but with separate route relations per
> direction/variant and by placing stops at the point where passengers
> wait. A stop with a platform get a railway/highway=platform way/area
> and a railway=tram_stop/highway=bus_stop node. (Except at stations, a
> stop_area relation is not required because the stop node is placed on
> the platform.) -- Advantage: Widely used tags, least retagging
> required. Disadvantage: A stop with a platform needs two elements (as
> railway/highway=platform + railway=tram_stop/highway=bus_stop can't be
> combined).
>
As mapper not interested in mapping transit routes I like this solution as
it is the simplest for people not interested in mapping of public transit routes
but interested in mapping bus/tram stops.

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

19. Jun 2018 19:39 by ok...@johnfreed.com :


> On balance, it seems to me that the tagging should reflect the term used to 
> publicize the line by the operator, rather than some esoteric technicality 
> knowable only to civil engineers and wiki readers. 




As long as it is not completely diverging from reality I would accept it




- something goes on rubber tyres, has dedicated tracks, looks like tram and is 
called a tram 


   - OK, for me it can be tagged as tram




- something looks like a bus, is normal bus vehicle, has no dedicated tracks 
and is called a tram

  - should be tagged as a bus, no matter how it is called by its operator




So I would use "term used to publicize the line" only if it is on the border.

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

After looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams 
especially "The Translohr 
system operates as a guided vehicle at all times, 
while with the Bombardier system the vehicles can be driven autonomously 
as requirements dictate, such as journeys to the depot."

I would define Translohr system as a tram and Bombardier system as a bus on a 
guideway.
This vehicle is on the edge between these two systems, and classification 
depends ona definition used - so in the end I would be OK with any decision 
(both tram and 
bus_guideway are defensible).

16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com :
>
> Maybe a solution is:
> railway=tram> tram: type = bus_guideway




Maybe tram:type = rubber-tyred?




(name stolen from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams 
 )

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com :


> I asked TRuchin, who gave me a technical explanation. (Apparently the wheels 
> are different.)




Is this discussion on forum, changeset discussion or other public place that 
can be linked ?

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Re: [Talk-transit] [OSM-talk] Automated edit for bus lines in Paris area

[Mateusz Konieczny]

"Summary: Adding values for two existing tags to bus stops"

 example edit changes three  tags.

The same in the proposed changes etc comment.

"This provides a link between the OSM node and the STIF stop_id."

And how this match is obtained?

Is source code of program generating matches and making edit published 
somewhere?

How edits will be split to avoid mega-edit changing thousands of objects with 
massive bounding box?

I see no mention of changeset tags - and wiki recommends adding some.

5 Jun 2018, 00:15 by ok...@johnfreed.com:

> I am planning an automated edit to improve our coverage of two existing tags 
> in the Paris region. The data source is the regional transit coordinating 
> agency, Île-de-France Mobilité, formerly STIF.
>
> There is a question about wheelchair access that I would like feedback on.
>
> If there is no need for a significant change, I plan to implement this around 
> June 20.
>
> Please make comments here or on the Discussion page attached to the proposal:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/johnparis 
> 
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>

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