Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Jan]

Hi

I think the diffrent between express and long_distance is that express
service do not stop at every stoppoint even it is the same network.

regards Jan

Am 28.05.2014 00:42, schrieb Teemu Ikonen:
> 
> express (97) / long_distance (70) / on_demand (102) / regular (299) /
> school (177) / shopping (2) / shuttle (4) / train_replacement (0) /
> urban (1202)
> 
> With the exception of 'train_replacement', these are even used somewhat.
> 
> In principle bus=express and bus=long_distance routes could be
> rendered also in lower zoom levels as coaches / intercity buses, but
> as was pointed out in this thread, express buses can also be found on
> local routes. A separate service=express tag would then be needed.

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Teemu Ikonen]

On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Cartinus  wrote:
> The original Oxomoa scheme already contained a solution to your
> problem[1]. It simply is not widely used yet.
> [1]

Thanks for pointing me to this page, it indeed has all the bus types I
could think of, and some more.

To be explicit, the link above has these values for the 'bus' key
(current usage from taginfo in parentheses):

express (97) / long_distance (70) / on_demand (102) / regular (299) /
school (177) / shopping (2) / shuttle (4) / train_replacement (0) /
urban (1202)

With the exception of 'train_replacement', these are even used somewhat.

In principle bus=express and bus=long_distance routes could be
rendered also in lower zoom levels as coaches / intercity buses, but
as was pointed out in this thread, express buses can also be found on
local routes. A separate service=express tag would then be needed.

When mapping a fast intercity bus service, the possible tag
combinations would then be route=bus + bus=long_distance +
service=express, or as I originally proposed, route=coach +
service=express.

It would be nice to get a consensus on this and eventually document
these tags in the wiki. Any thoughts?

Best,
Teemu

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Cartinus]

I just realized that for people living in a bigger country there might
actually be a difference between those two. There is however no reason
they could not be rendered the same (at least initially).

On 05/26/2014 05:46 PM, Cartinus wrote:
> bus=long_distance (70 uses currently in the database)
> bus=interurban (59 uses currently in the database)
> 
> It would be handy to standardize on one of those two.


---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Cartinus]

While you could call all intercity buses express buses. Not all express
buses are intercity buses. A common scheme around here is for rush hour
express lines that stop at all stops in the suburbs/villages, then skip
most/all stops in the city proper and end at the central (bus)station.

The original Oxomoa scheme already contained a solution to your
problem[1]. It simply is not widely used yet.

See taginfo[2]:
bus=long_distance (70 uses currently in the database)
bus=interurban (59 uses currently in the database)

It would be handy to standardize on one of those two.

[1]

[2]

On 05/26/2014 05:02 PM, Teemu Ikonen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks to all for the replies on coach route mapping.
> 
> I don't agree that this is purely a rendering problem. The information
> needed to distinguish urban bus transit from long distance coach
> services simply does not exist in the database at the moment and there
> is no consistent way of tagging routes so that this distinction could
> be made.
> 
> Looking at the active public transport proposal again, the network tag
> of route=bus/train/subway/tram could be part of a solution, but it
> seems that the usage is not really consistent everywhere. For example,
> in Helsinki the bus routes have network=Helsinki, subway has
> network='Helsingin metro'  and so on, even though both can be used
> with the same ticket. This could be a local problem though.
> 
> I still think that long distance services which are not part of an
> urban transit network should be distinguished somehow, so I like the
> idea of using service=express for coaches. This could mostly do what I
> was proposing, if it would be widely used and the rendered correctly.
> Currently this tag seems to be used only around Oxford and ignored by
> tile rendering style sheets.
> 
> The rendering of coach routes should be de-emphasized in high zoom
> levels, i.e. they should be overdrawn by local transit bus lines, but
> on the other hand they should be also drawn in low zoom levels, like
> long distance train routes in Öpnvkarte are.
> 
> Best,
> Teemu
> 
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> 

-- 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Bill R. WASHBURN]

What about a three-level service scheme for buses:

Service=local (transit system bus lines)
Service=commuter (express commuter buses to the suburbs)
Service=intercity (like the American Greyhound bus routes)

There might be grey areas but it should be fairly easy to fit most routes
in one of these three categories.

Bill R. WASHBURN
On May 26, 2014 11:03 AM, "Teemu Ikonen"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks to all for the replies on coach route mapping.
>
> I don't agree that this is purely a rendering problem. The information
> needed to distinguish urban bus transit from long distance coach
> services simply does not exist in the database at the moment and there
> is no consistent way of tagging routes so that this distinction could
> be made.
>
> Looking at the active public transport proposal again, the network tag
> of route=bus/train/subway/tram could be part of a solution, but it
> seems that the usage is not really consistent everywhere. For example,
> in Helsinki the bus routes have network=Helsinki, subway has
> network='Helsingin metro'  and so on, even though both can be used
> with the same ticket. This could be a local problem though.
>
> I still think that long distance services which are not part of an
> urban transit network should be distinguished somehow, so I like the
> idea of using service=express for coaches. This could mostly do what I
> was proposing, if it would be widely used and the rendered correctly.
> Currently this tag seems to be used only around Oxford and ignored by
> tile rendering style sheets.
>
> The rendering of coach routes should be de-emphasized in high zoom
> levels, i.e. they should be overdrawn by local transit bus lines, but
> on the other hand they should be also drawn in low zoom levels, like
> long distance train routes in Öpnvkarte are.
>
> Best,
> Teemu
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

[Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Teemu Ikonen]

Hi,

Thanks to all for the replies on coach route mapping.

I don't agree that this is purely a rendering problem. The information
needed to distinguish urban bus transit from long distance coach
services simply does not exist in the database at the moment and there
is no consistent way of tagging routes so that this distinction could
be made.

Looking at the active public transport proposal again, the network tag
of route=bus/train/subway/tram could be part of a solution, but it
seems that the usage is not really consistent everywhere. For example,
in Helsinki the bus routes have network=Helsinki, subway has
network='Helsingin metro'  and so on, even though both can be used
with the same ticket. This could be a local problem though.

I still think that long distance services which are not part of an
urban transit network should be distinguished somehow, so I like the
idea of using service=express for coaches. This could mostly do what I
was proposing, if it would be widely used and the rendered correctly.
Currently this tag seems to be used only around Oxford and ignored by
tile rendering style sheets.

The rendering of coach routes should be de-emphasized in high zoom
levels, i.e. they should be overdrawn by local transit bus lines, but
on the other hand they should be also drawn in low zoom levels, like
long distance train routes in Öpnvkarte are.

Best,
Teemu

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Richard Mann]

I added service=express to the coaches that we have locally, using a
similar model to that used for train services. As long as it's clear, it
doesn't really matter (it can always be standardised at a later date).

{Formally, coaches are quite distinctive - the wheels are attached to an
underframe distinct from the coach body, which is why they are more
comfortable than buses. But I'd tend to make the distinction based on the
service offered, rather than the technology}.

Richard


On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Jo  wrote:

> In Belgium there are three operators, but in the region where they operate
> they each have both city lines and regional lines and then a few long
> distance lines operated with coaches. The regional lines are complementary
> to the city lines in the cities as well. And some city lines go 15kms
> outside the city in each direction, so the distinction is blurred.
>
> I agree that there are too many red lines on the transport map, but apart
> from using the official colours in a spiderlike representation, I don't see
> a good solution to that problem.
>
> Polyglot
>
>
> 2014-05-25 11:26 GMT+02:00 Jan :
>
> Hi
>>
>> Am 25.05.2014 11:02, schrieb Janko Mihelić:
>> > I don't think we need a new tag. There would be a lot of gray area,
>> > where do coaches end and buses start? The line isn't clear.
>> > What would help is we should map the operator tag and then the renderers
>> > should show the route or not based on the operator. Or different
>> > operators could be rendered with different colors.
>> >
>> > I think this is more a render problem than a mapping problem.
>> >
>> > Janko
>>
>> Of course it is a render problem. But you could not find the solution in
>> the operator tag. Why?
>> Have a look to Dresden. There you can find different operators. Esp.
>> RVD. The most lines from this operator are regional buslines around
>> Dresden. But there are also longdistance lines to Praha oder Berlin.
>> Or take a look at meinfernbus. Who is the operator? meinfernbus has the
>> licens an make the marketing sold tickets and so on. But the busses from
>> different small companys.
>>
>> What should be the different between the busroutes? I think in germany
>> it is a little bit easier. You have lines regional or urban lines which
>> are orderd by gouverment.
>> The other ones are not orderd. the company have to earn the money only
>> from passenger and the minimum amount is ristricted.
>>
>> Jan
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-transit mailing list
>> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Jo]

In Belgium there are three operators, but in the region where they operate
they each have both city lines and regional lines and then a few long
distance lines operated with coaches. The regional lines are complementary
to the city lines in the cities as well. And some city lines go 15kms
outside the city in each direction, so the distinction is blurred.

I agree that there are too many red lines on the transport map, but apart
from using the official colours in a spiderlike representation, I don't see
a good solution to that problem.

Polyglot


2014-05-25 11:26 GMT+02:00 Jan :

> Hi
>
> Am 25.05.2014 11:02, schrieb Janko Mihelić:
> > I don't think we need a new tag. There would be a lot of gray area,
> > where do coaches end and buses start? The line isn't clear.
> > What would help is we should map the operator tag and then the renderers
> > should show the route or not based on the operator. Or different
> > operators could be rendered with different colors.
> >
> > I think this is more a render problem than a mapping problem.
> >
> > Janko
>
> Of course it is a render problem. But you could not find the solution in
> the operator tag. Why?
> Have a look to Dresden. There you can find different operators. Esp.
> RVD. The most lines from this operator are regional buslines around
> Dresden. But there are also longdistance lines to Praha oder Berlin.
> Or take a look at meinfernbus. Who is the operator? meinfernbus has the
> licens an make the marketing sold tickets and so on. But the busses from
> different small companys.
>
> What should be the different between the busroutes? I think in germany
> it is a little bit easier. You have lines regional or urban lines which
> are orderd by gouverment.
> The other ones are not orderd. the company have to earn the money only
> from passenger and the minimum amount is ristricted.
>
> Jan
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Jan]

Hi

Am 25.05.2014 11:02, schrieb Janko Mihelić:
> I don't think we need a new tag. There would be a lot of gray area,
> where do coaches end and buses start? The line isn't clear.
> What would help is we should map the operator tag and then the renderers
> should show the route or not based on the operator. Or different
> operators could be rendered with different colors.
> 
> I think this is more a render problem than a mapping problem.
> 
> Janko

Of course it is a render problem. But you could not find the solution in
the operator tag. Why?
Have a look to Dresden. There you can find different operators. Esp.
RVD. The most lines from this operator are regional buslines around
Dresden. But there are also longdistance lines to Praha oder Berlin.
Or take a look at meinfernbus. Who is the operator? meinfernbus has the
licens an make the marketing sold tickets and so on. But the busses from
different small companys.

What should be the different between the busroutes? I think in germany
it is a little bit easier. You have lines regional or urban lines which
are orderd by gouverment.
The other ones are not orderd. the company have to earn the money only
from passenger and the minimum amount is ristricted.

Jan

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Janko Mihelić]

I don't think we need a new tag. There would be a lot of gray area, where
do coaches end and buses start? The line isn't clear.
What would help is we should map the operator tag and then the renderers
should show the route or not based on the operator. Or different operators
could be rendered with different colors.

I think this is more a render problem than a mapping problem.

Janko


2014-05-25 0:30 GMT+02:00 Teemu Ikonen :

> Hi,
>
> The current public transport schema bundles local bus transit routes
> together with intercity buses (coaches), both routes are tagged with
> route=bus.
>
> Since buses and coaches rarely are part of the same network, this
> makes things rather confusing for users of transit maps like
> Öpnvkarte. If I want to go to another part of town, I'll need the
> routes of the local (bus) transit network and intercity services are
> distraction, but if I'm going to another city, the opposite is true.
>
> Looking at main bus stations in European cities, one sees that not
> many intercity routes are mapped. Given the current potential for
> confusion with local transit, this is probably a good thing, but it
> also means that OSM is missing a significant part of the public
> transport network.
>
> The obvious fix would be to create a new public transport type in
> addition to bus, train, tram, etc. Since British English seems to be
> the standard in OSM, the new type should be called 'coach'.
>
> In practice, this type would be used in public_transport=stop_position
> nodes with a coach=yes tag and in routes with route=coach. Coach
> routes should have tags similar to bus routes (name, network, etc.).
> Transit maps should render coach routes with a unique color to
> distinguish them from other networks.
>
> Are there any downsides to this idea? How would one go about proposing
> coach routes as a standard, documented feature? Should a new proposal
> be made, or can the active public transport proposal at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport
> be amended?
>
> Best,
> Teemu
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

[Talk-transit] Mapping intercity bus routes

[Teemu Ikonen]

Hi,

The current public transport schema bundles local bus transit routes
together with intercity buses (coaches), both routes are tagged with
route=bus.

Since buses and coaches rarely are part of the same network, this
makes things rather confusing for users of transit maps like
Öpnvkarte. If I want to go to another part of town, I'll need the
routes of the local (bus) transit network and intercity services are
distraction, but if I'm going to another city, the opposite is true.

Looking at main bus stations in European cities, one sees that not
many intercity routes are mapped. Given the current potential for
confusion with local transit, this is probably a good thing, but it
also means that OSM is missing a significant part of the public
transport network.

The obvious fix would be to create a new public transport type in
addition to bus, train, tram, etc. Since British English seems to be
the standard in OSM, the new type should be called 'coach'.

In practice, this type would be used in public_transport=stop_position
nodes with a coach=yes tag and in routes with route=coach. Coach
routes should have tags similar to bus routes (name, network, etc.).
Transit maps should render coach routes with a unique color to
distinguish them from other networks.

Are there any downsides to this idea? How would one go about proposing
coach routes as a standard, documented feature? Should a new proposal
be made, or can the active public transport proposal at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport
be amended?

Best,
Teemu

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit