Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Chris Morley]

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> In my opinion the name tag is used as a general purpose tag in OSM for
> names of all sorts of things. So, it appeared quite natural to use it
> for recording the names of the plus bus zones as well. From the other
> tags renderers can easily guess what type of object the name belongs to
> and the decide if it should be displayed. So there is no need to use
> namespaced versions of the name tag just to prevent the renderer from
> displaying it.

It is rather useful that Mapnik will display a name of a feature which 
is of general interest but may have unknown tagging. For a new feature 
like PlusBus zones that are not intended for display on a general 
purpose map, it make more sense for them not to have a name or ref tag 
than to enter each one of them for non-display in the general Mapnik 
stylesheet. As a general rule, a new feature should not break existing 
code if possible. It is easily possible in this case by adding a 
prefix, with very little downside.

Chris

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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Ed Loach]

Frankie wrote:

> Hopefully, we can get this bug 
> (http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2177) 
> fixed fairly soon, and Mapnik updated, so that we can 
> continue using name=, rather than having to use the 
> awkwardly namespaced version.
> 
> Incidentally, if anyone knows anything about the Mapnik 
> stylesheets, perhaps they could look into which bit needs 
> to be changed, and then submit that as a patch? Might get 
> the change implemented a bit quicker...

I've had a quick look and it is the roads-text style which is applying the 
ElseFilter because the ways are being picked up as roads as this is the filter 
used:

   where waterway IS NULL
 and leisure IS NULL
 and landuse IS NULL
 and (name is not null or ref is not null)

I don't know enough about the table planet_osm_line though to know whether we 
could just add 
and public_transport<>'pay_scale_area' 
in there somewhere or not.

I've added a note to the trac ticket though in case it helps.

Ed



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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Frankie Roberto]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:


> > In my opinion the name tag is used as a general purpose tag in
> > OSM for
> > names of all sorts of things. So, it appeared quite natural to
> > use it
> > for recording the names of the plus bus zones as well. From the
> > other
> > tags renderers can easily guess what type of object the name
> > belongs to
> > and the decide if it should be displayed. So there is no need
> > to use
> > namespaced versions of the name tag just to prevent the
> > renderer from
> > displaying it.
>
> I know, and changing the key did really feel like "tagging for the
> renderer". I've now changed it back. At the time I was just annoyed
> that it took me so long to work out why the name was showing in the
> middle of nowhere at a strange angle. I'd probably still be looking
> if I hadn't remembered the recent import.
>

Hopefully, we can get this bug (http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2177)
fixed fairly soon, and Mapnik updated, so that we can continue using name=,
rather than having to use the awkwardly namespaced version.

Incidentally, if anyone knows anything about the Mapnik stylesheets, perhaps
they could look into which bit needs to be changed, and then submit that as
a patch? Might get the change implemented a bit quicker...

Frankie

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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Frankie Roberto]

2009/8/17 Christoph Böhme 


> > Heh. Sounds a bit like the geo information which is captured in the
> > Open Plaques project (http://www.openplaques.org/) which I run...
>
> Neat! In Birmingham we have started to put the blue plaques in the OSM
> database as memorials.
>

Cool! I did wonder about using OSM, instead of creating a separate database,
but a) I wasn't sure whether they were an appropriate OSM feature or not,
and b) I wanted to be able to index them in different ways (eg by person
commemorated), which would have been more complicated to store in OSM.

However, I might start to look into how the two systems could at least be
linked together...

(This is wildly off-topic for talk-transit now. I may post to the main
mailing list at some point about this instead.)

Frankie

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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Ed Loach]

> I am the one who prepared the import of the PlusBus zones. When
> I
> decided to use the name tag I was not aware that the mapnik
> style
> renders them unconditionally otherwise I would not have
> imported the
> data without warning.
> 
> In my opinion the name tag is used as a general purpose tag in
> OSM for
> names of all sorts of things. So, it appeared quite natural to
> use it
> for recording the names of the plus bus zones as well. From the
> other
> tags renderers can easily guess what type of object the name
> belongs to
> and the decide if it should be displayed. So there is no need
> to use
> namespaced versions of the name tag just to prevent the
> renderer from
> displaying it.

I know, and changing the key did really feel like "tagging for the
renderer". I've now changed it back. At the time I was just annoyed
that it took me so long to work out why the name was showing in the
middle of nowhere at a strange angle. I'd probably still be looking
if I hadn't remembered the recent import.

Ed



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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Christoph Böhme]

Frankie Roberto  schrieb:

> Dave F wrote:
> > My initial response would be to agree with Chris M. & query whether
> > it should be included in the main database. It does seem to get in
> > the way a bit. However, being a newbie, I'm willing to hear
> > arguments for it.
> >
> 
> I'm not sure about it either. Long-term, it might be better to
> incorporate the information on the bus stop nodes themselves
> (pay_scale_area=XXX perhaps). However, given that'd it'd take a while
> to copy this information over (and it'd be harder to keep it up to
> date), perhaps we're best off just living with the boundary for the
> moment...

The main reason why I imported the Plusbus data was because it was
available as part of the NaPTAN import. But I also think since we add
bus routes to the database it surely makes sense to add geographically
defined pay scale areas. However, if the body of public transport
related data grows further it might make sense in the (far) future to
keep parts of it in a separate database. 

The problem I see with adding the PlusBus zone reference to the bus
stops is that we then need to find a place where to store the other
information about the zones (like name and ref). I considered using a
relation for each PlusBus zone but Thomas told me that this does not
work because there are to many bus stops within the zones.

> > I think it's only a matter of time before I come across a POI that
> > proudly proclaims - "This is the spot where Sandra Hutchinson first
> > let me stick my hand up her jumper" :-)
> >
> 
> Heh. Sounds a bit like the geo information which is captured in the
> Open Plaques project (http://www.openplaques.org/) which I run...

Neat! In Birmingham we have started to put the blue plaques in the OSM
database as memorials. 

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Christoph Böhme]

"Ed Loach"  schrieb:

> > With specialist data without a physical presence, like PlusBus
> > zones,
> > my view is that careful thought should be given to whether to
> > import
> > them into the main OSM database at all, and if they are
> > imported they
> > should use namespaced tags. 
> 
> On the Harwich area I renamed the name= tag to NaPTAN:name=
> yesterday when I was adding a footpath near Little Oakley and spent
> ages trying to work out why the word Harwich was appearing (in
> Mapnik) at an angle to a road about where the footpath was supposed
> to join. Being quite a large area with few nodes the connecting way
> didn't show in Potlatch until I'd panned around enough for one of
> the nodes to come into scope.
> 
> So yes, I'd agree that name= should be namespaced, if not more of
> the tags.

Hi

I am the one who prepared the import of the PlusBus zones. When I
decided to use the name tag I was not aware that the mapnik style
renders them unconditionally otherwise I would not have imported the
data without warning.

In my opinion the name tag is used as a general purpose tag in OSM for
names of all sorts of things. So, it appeared quite natural to use it
for recording the names of the plus bus zones as well. From the other
tags renderers can easily guess what type of object the name belongs to
and the decide if it should be displayed. So there is no need to use
namespaced versions of the name tag just to prevent the renderer from
displaying it.

Cheers,
Christoph

> Ed
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Ed Loach]

> With specialist data without a physical presence, like PlusBus
> zones,
> my view is that careful thought should be given to whether to
> import
> them into the main OSM database at all, and if they are
> imported they
> should use namespaced tags. 

On the Harwich area I renamed the name= tag to NaPTAN:name=
yesterday when I was adding a footpath near Little Oakley and spent
ages trying to work out why the word Harwich was appearing (in
Mapnik) at an angle to a road about where the footpath was supposed
to join. Being quite a large area with few nodes the connecting way
didn't show in Potlatch until I'd panned around enough for one of
the nodes to come into scope.

So yes, I'd agree that name= should be namespaced, if not more of
the tags.

Ed



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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[d f]

>Heh. Sounds a bit like the geo information which is captured in the Open
>Plaques project (http://www.openplaques.org/) which I run...


Ah! I saw your Freedom Of Information request on What Do They Know for Bath.
I assume you sent requests to all authorities. Were there any that didn't/were 
able to supply the info?

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Frankie Roberto]

Dave F wrote:


> First off a couple of queries about transit talk.
> Is T-T purely email client based or is there a web page listing the posts?
>

There's a web archive here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-transit/ (this is linked to in
the footer of each of the posts)


> I receive a digest of previous posts & can't see a way to reply
> individually to specific posts, where I get the Re: in the subject box.
>

Yeah, this is one of the downsides of receiving the e-mails in digest mode -
you have to manually edit the subject lines. Personally, I prefer to receive
the e-mails singularly, and then GMail does a good job of threading them.

You can change your settings here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit (use the box at the
very bottom of the page. It's not very intuitive)

The area in question is Bath & the specific problem I'm referring to is:
>
> http://osm.org/go/eukj3FJ_
>

Thanks for the link, I've added it to the bug report:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2177


> My initial response would be to agree with Chris M. & query whether it
> should be included in the main database. It does seem to get in the way a
> bit. However, being a newbie, I'm willing to hear arguments for it.
>

I'm not sure about it either. Long-term, it might be better to incorporate
the information on the bus stop nodes themselves (pay_scale_area=XXX
perhaps). However, given that'd it'd take a while to copy this information
over (and it'd be harder to keep it up to date), perhaps we're best off just
living with the boundary for the moment...


> I think it's only a matter of time before I come across a POI that proudly
> proclaims - "This is the spot where Sandra Hutchinson first let me stick my
> hand up her jumper" :-)
>

Heh. Sounds a bit like the geo information which is captured in the Open
Plaques project (http://www.openplaques.org/) which I run...

BTW, a "namespaced tag" is simply a tag where the predicate (or tag name) is
a string containing a colon (eg "addr:housenumber".  I don't think the
database, or API, treat these any differently from other tags, however the
namespace (the bit of the string before the colon) helps to categorise the
type of tag for humans...

Take care,

Frankie
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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[d f]

@ Chris M.

Excuse my ignorance but what is a namespaced tag? I can't see an explanation in 
the Wiki.

Thanks 
Dave F.



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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[d f]

Thank you for the welcome

First off a couple of queries about transit talk.
Is T-T purely email client based or is there a web page listing the posts?
I receive a digest of previous posts & can't see a way to reply individually to 
specific posts, where I get the Re: in the subject box.

The area in question is Bath & the specific problem I'm referring to is:

http://osm.org/go/eukj3FJ_

My initial response would be to agree with Chris M. & query whether it should 
be included in the main database. It does seem to get in the way a bit. 
However, being a newbie, I'm willing to hear arguments for it.

I'm sure there have been many discussion about what should/shouldn't be added.
I think it's only a matter of time before I come across a POI that proudly 
proclaims - "This is the spot where Sandra Hutchinson first let me stick my 
hand up her jumper" :-)

Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Chris Morley]

With specialist data without a physical presence, like PlusBus zones, 
my view is that careful thought should be given to whether to import 
them into the main OSM database at all, and if they are imported they 
should use namespaced tags. The NAPTAN import of bus stops in 
Birmingham did not (quite rightly) use name or ref, presumably to 
avoid this problem. The PlusBus zones are already a minor irritation 
because they get in the way of editing (often being next to but not 
coincident with roads), so they should try to be as good neighbours as 
possible. A new import should design its tagging considerately, and 
not expect renderers to be changed to accommodate it.

The PlusBus zones would be more useful if you could get them rendered 
(as an area) on http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ .

Incidentally, and apologies if it has already been discussed, but is 
it necessary for every bus stop in Birmingham to be tagged 
naptan:PlusbusZoneRef = BHAMNWS ? Is a PlusBus zone not enough?

Chris

Frankie Roberto wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> Firstly - welcome to the group.
> 
> Can you post a link to the area on the map (or to the way)?
> 
> I've logged a note about this in trac here: 
> http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2177
> 
> Frankie
> 
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Dave F.  > wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The pay_scale_area gas just been added around my home town.
> 
> The boundary, thankfully, doesn't show up, but unfortunately the name
> label does in Mapnik.
> Can this be amended to it _doesn't_ display?
> 
> Thanks
> Dave F.
> 
> 
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> 
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> Experience Designer, Rattle
> 0114 2706977
> http://www.rattlecentral.com
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Frankie Roberto]

Hi Dave,

Firstly - welcome to the group.

Can you post a link to the area on the map (or to the way)?

I've logged a note about this in trac here:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2177

Frankie

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The pay_scale_area gas just been added around my home town.
>
> The boundary, thankfully, doesn't show up, but unfortunately the name
> label does in Mapnik.
> Can this be amended to it _doesn't_ display?
>
> Thanks
> Dave F.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Jochen Topf]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 02:57:29PM +0100, Dave F. wrote:
> The pay_scale_area gas just been added around my home town.
> 
> The boundary, thankfully, doesn't show up, but unfortunately the name 
> label does in Mapnik.
> Can this be amended to it _doesn't_ display?

Thats a long-standing problem with the current Mapnik style sheet. If it
doesn't know what it is, it doesn't render the feature but it renders the
name. :-(

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[Talk-transit] pay_scale_area

[Dave F.]

Hi

The pay_scale_area gas just been added around my home town.

The boundary, thankfully, doesn't show up, but unfortunately the name 
label does in Mapnik.
Can this be amended to it _doesn't_ display?

Thanks
Dave F.


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