Re: [Talk-us] highway: tertiary?

2008-09-13 Thread Alan Brown
I noticed the following suggested definitions for California for different road 
classes:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/California


For tertiary, they suggested


highway=tertiary
Lower traffic volumes on wide streets, or higher on narrow ones. 


Kinda' vague    and I'm not sure I'm in agreement with these definitions, 
personally.  I'd be even more vague :) .  Here's what I think as someone who 
worked in a map data company for a decade:


Navteq and Tele Atlas have something known as a functional road class that is 
used to designate the relative importance of a road for getting to your 
destination.  During a typical trip, you would progress from roads of 
less-important functional road class, to more-important fucntional road class, 
and back down to less-important functional road class as you reach your 
destination.  I would guess, within a mile of most urban origins, you'd expect 
to be on a tertiary road, and within another mile you'd find yourself on 
secondary road, and so forth. (Of course, if you can get to a more important 
road quicker, you'd use that.)

Point to be made is, the functional road classification of a road might not 
strictly reflect the physical attributes of the road (number of lanes, speed 
limit, etc.) but rather, the relative importance of a road in its particular 
vicinity.  The clearest example of this I can think of is the Transcanadian 
Highway.  There are portions of the Transcanadian Highway that are not limited 
access, due to low population densities.  However, Navteq gives it the most 
important classification level - while some Interstate Freeways, and many 
local limited access freeways in the US, are not assigned to that category.

Point to made is, commercial data providers are somewhat subjective in their 
assignment of functional road class.  Open Street Map's Highway attribute 
may be a bit different:  certainly, a
Motorway is a clearly defined type of road.  However, when I've assigned 
Primary, Secondary, or
Tertiary categories, I've tried to use local knowledge to reflect what the 
relative importance of those roads are.   It will tend to track the physical 
attributes of the road, but not strictly.  Some of it's aesthetics - I'll try 
to decide which primary roads should be demoted to secondary roads if the map 
starts looking too cluttered, or try to promote some roads from tertiary to 
secondary if the map looks too thin.  Perhaps one secondary road between each 
pair of primary roads, and one tertiary road between each pair of secondary 
roads (although that's impossible to it exactly like that.)

San Jose (where I live) has a lot of physically wide roads with moderately high 
speed limits that aren't used nearly as much as other roads with the same 
characteristics.  Use the highway attribute to reflect that reality.  Use 
explicit attributes to define number of lanes and speed limit.

It's subjective.  A Tele Atlas map and a Navteq map based on functional road 
types will look different because they made different judgements.  (They do 
have rules to eliminate some of the subjectivity - but not completely.)


That's my opinion - anyone disagree?




- Original Message 
From: David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 9:48:35 PM
Subject: [Talk-us] highway: tertiary?


Hi,

I'm not sure if this question is within scope of this list, but 
I thought it might be sufficiently country-specific:  when is it 
appropriate to use highway: tertiary in the US?

Thanks.


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Re: [Talk-us] highway: tertiary?

2008-09-13 Thread Alan Brown
Here's an example, where I used to live a short distance south of Alviso:

http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=37.3851lon=-121.9258zoom=14layers=B000FTF


See the light yellow roads that connect to other roads such as
Montague Expressway and 1st St?  Roads such as Lick Mill Blvd, Orchard Parkway,
Plumeria?  They're actually fair wide roads, and can have ~40 mph speed limits. 
 
The thing is, they're used only by people getting to local homes or businesses 
- they're not 
the main through routes.

For San Jose, I've mentally come up with a system that's goes like this:

Motorways are any and all limited access freeways - Highway 87, US 101, I-280

Primary highways are Expressways - or the few other roads that are similarly 
important.
Montague Expressway, Lawrence Expressway, San Tomas Expressway, El Camino Real,
Stevens Creek Boulevard: the heavy duty arterials.

Secondary Highways are those roads you may take for a few miles, but are a 
little less important - such as Lafayette Street (which turns into Gold Street 
in Alviso - I wonder if I should have demoted it to a tertiary highway after it 
crossed under 237.)

And then you have your tertiary roads.

I've been subjective enough about this that I don't mind if some of these roads 
get reassigned, particularly in some neighborhoods I'm less familiar with.  The 
San Jose map was in desperate need of having some sort of hierarchy of 
importance, so some areas I was less familiar with - such as East San Jose - 
I've tried to pick out the primary and secondary roads, without assigning 
tertiary roads.

But hopefully, when you look at the map, you can quickly decide:  what are the 
main roads I'd used to get to a neighborhood?  What are the main roads within a 
neighborhood?  That's another way to think of secondary and tertiary roads.

-Alan



- Original Message 
From: David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Alan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] highway: tertiary?


Alan,

I live in the Bay Area and in fact will probably be augmenting some of your 
work down around Alviso and Sunnyvale; do you have any examples where you've 
actually chosen to use highway=tertiary?


On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 09:57:52AM -0700, Alan Brown wrote:

 I noticed the following suggested definitions for California for different 
 road classes:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/California
 
 
 For tertiary, they suggested
 
 
 highway=tertiary
 Lower traffic volumes on wide streets, or higher on narrow ones. 
 
 
 Kinda' vague    and I'm not sure I'm in agreement with these definitions, 
 personally.  I'd be even more vague :) .  Here's what I think as someone who 
 worked in a map data company for a decade:
 
 

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