Re: [Talk-us] One-way Wrong-way
On 5/3/10 9:28 PM, Alan Mintz wrote: > At 2010-05-03 12:49, Val Kartchner wrote: > It would be cool if it also checked that the all the ways making up a > motorway are in their correct relations. > > BTW, I see that there are usually "Some Freeway North" and "Some Freeway > South" relations for each freeway, but not a dual_carriageway > "super-relation" with those two relations as members. Is this recommended? > If so, the bot could maybe create these as well if they don't exist. > what has been tending to be done is to build a super relation that bridges all the states, so there would be a bunch of I-90 relations stopping at state lines and then one superrelation that gathers it all up. i haven't really been watching to see if that's being done very consistently. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] One-way Wrong-way
At 2010-05-03 12:49, Val Kartchner wrote: >... Would someone write a 'bot that would go >through the database and see if there are segments that have similar >problems? These should be flagged and put on some list for manual >checking. Actually any one-way streets that make no sense should be >flagged. (Things like a one-way dead-end street.) It would be cool if it also checked that the all the ways making up a motorway are in their correct relations. BTW, I see that there are usually "Some Freeway North" and "Some Freeway South" relations for each freeway, but not a dual_carriageway "super-relation" with those two relations as members. Is this recommended? If so, the bot could maybe create these as well if they don't exist. -- Alan Mintz ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] One-way Wrong-way
> And as for finding and fixing wrong-way segemetns and other motorway > problems have a look at > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Waychains_TIGER_fixup Also mkgmap generates warning for oneways going nowhere or oneways coming from nowhere. Whne I generate maps I try to fix them. Thanks, N. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] One-way Wrong-way
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Val Kartchner wrote: > I was using the OSM maps on my Garmin just to test the routing. With > the OSM data, it sometimes picks strange routes. > > However, last Saturday it picked a really strange route suggesting a > dirt road next to the freeway instead of the freeway itself. Today I > looked at the route, and Cloudmade made a similar strange routing > decision. I found that one segment of the freeway was the wrong way. > > I have fixed this segment. I have also previously fixed on and off > ramps that were the wrong way. Would someone write a 'bot that would go > through the database and see if there are segments that have similar > problems? These should be flagged and put on some list for manual > checking. Actually any one-way streets that make no sense should be > flagged. (Things like a one-way dead-end street.) I map every one way, dead end street I can find. And as for finding and fixing wrong-way segemetns and other motorway problems have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Waychains_TIGER_fixup ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] One-way Wrong-way
I was using the OSM maps on my Garmin just to test the routing. With the OSM data, it sometimes picks strange routes. However, last Saturday it picked a really strange route suggesting a dirt road next to the freeway instead of the freeway itself. Today I looked at the route, and Cloudmade made a similar strange routing decision. I found that one segment of the freeway was the wrong way. I have fixed this segment. I have also previously fixed on and off ramps that were the wrong way. Would someone write a 'bot that would go through the database and see if there are segments that have similar problems? These should be flagged and put on some list for manual checking. Actually any one-way streets that make no sense should be flagged. (Things like a one-way dead-end street.) Thanks, - Val - ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
We classify siren maps as homeland security information, just like pipelines, following the precedent from the Santa Clara County case. They are not part of the publically available datasets for St Louis County: http://www.stlouisco.com/plan/gis/spatial_data.html I cannot specify precisely why, but there is a good chance that another grassroots siren mapping project was conducted locally for the purpose of data-gathering for a siren hack attempt. Like pipelines and security perimeters, it is one of those areas that may not be that wise to map in an organized way in the United States unless you coordinate a little with local emergency management agencies. Is our agency going to do anything about it if mapping sirens is the OSM project of the week? No. But another agency who finds out about the project and has no idea what OSM is and has no notice from a local mapping that they are mapping out all the sirens on the ground for OSM might not be so friendly to that local mapping (especially if a siren hacker turns around and uses that information to plan an attack). --Brett Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:52:43 -0500 From: Jeffrey Ollie Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens? To: "talk-us@openstreetmap.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett wrote: > Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? Because they are there isn't a good enough reason? > Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do > fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Without some proof I call FUD. Anyway, sunshine laws are for governments, not for individual citizens. I'm not expecting people to drop in on the local emergency management agency and ask for a map of all the sirens... -- Jeff Ollie -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6 ** ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 08:44 -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Apollinaris Schoell > wrote: > > > > good summary. and because of the rule "fast food to be avoided" I rarely > > map these. and interestingly I see more real restaurants and cafe in osm. > > are most mappers foodies? > > I tend to map whatever is on the ground, despite my feelings about > whatever services may be offered or what is represented. > > I think it would be nice to add a "restaurant guide" to the wiki that > lists generally agreed-upon tags for popular chains like we are > discussing, or have an easy interface into tagwatch or similar to see > what other people are actually tagging on these businesses. You can't go strictly by the chain name. For instance (at least around here) the older Pizza Hut restaurants are full-service-at-the-table restaurants, and they all do take-out and delivery. The new ones don't even have tables, so they are strictly take-out and delivery. - Val - ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Toby Murray wrote: > Kansas just tested them this morning. There is one on the roof of the > building I work in. But even looking at the high res (<1m) photos > available from the county GIS website, all I can see is "there is > something there" but I can't pick out a distinctive siren shape. This > would definitely take boots on the ground. Same here. > As for testing times, isn't that usually coordinated state-wide? Or is > it just local? I thought they did a full test of the emergency alert > system including sirens, TV and radio break-ins at the same time but > I'm not sure. On April 7th there was a state-wide drill in Iowa that included a test of the full Emergency Alert System. I think that's done annually. I think other tests are done on a per-system per-jurisdiction basis. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett wrote: > Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? Because they are there isn't a good enough reason? > You have to make some significant decisions of what kind of information to > include about the sirens (for example, without range and/or model, you cannot > derive projected coverage; without directional coverage you cannot identify > nearest covering siren). Right now I'm just interested in where they are... More information is welcome but obviously that can be more difficult to obtain. > Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do > fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Without some proof I call FUD. Anyway, sunshine laws are for governments, not for individual citizens. I'm not expecting people to drop in on the local emergency management agency and ask for a map of all the sirens... > Some jurisdictions (mostly cities) are open with their siren locations, some > of them are very protective (mostly those places whose sirens have been > subjected to attacks by siren hackers in the past or who have particularly > significant security concerns). I don't see how mapping sirens really increases the security concerns... Most civil defense sirens near me are mounted on tall towers and advertise their location quite loudly on a regular basis. The ones that I have mapped recently have no physical protection either, not even a fence around it (except one that is literally in someone's back yard). > Mapping site specific sirens (like those used for electric generation > facilities) can especially draw scrutiny. Well, hanging around an electric generation plant and surveiling it is likely to draw scrutiny no matter what you are looking for. > As for the feasibility, I recently did a project to map 210 sirens from > aerial photos and ground work, and it was virtually impossible without prior > knowledge of the siren locations and high resolution aerial oblique photos. > In all, it took about 60 hours of work (and that was with a list of > locations). Hey, I'm not expecting miracles! I was really expecting people to take a walk around their neighborhood and note the locations of the sirens, much like they map their favorite pub. Eventually we'll get them all... -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
Kansas just tested them this morning. There is one on the roof of the building I work in. But even looking at the high res (<1m) photos available from the county GIS website, all I can see is "there is something there" but I can't pick out a distinctive siren shape. This would definitely take boots on the ground. As for testing times, isn't that usually coordinated state-wide? Or is it just local? I thought they did a full test of the emergency alert system including sirens, TV and radio break-ins at the same time but I'm not sure. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: >>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: >>> >>> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the >>> international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are you kidding me? What part of > "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals > " > leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) > > Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. > wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, > the more likely it is to be selected. > >>> Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? >> >> Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking >> at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you >> know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery >> available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google >> imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think >> that's appropriate. > > Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own > example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a > proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map > is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? > >>> Perhaps we could start >>> researching which states/areas have active sirens? > > Better to mobilize the crowd to map them. We'll get better quality > from mappers than from an import. And mappers adding sirens are more > likely to tag the rest of the park with the playground, sport field an > water fountain. > >> Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in >> "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary >> to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is >> imminent severe weather. > > I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be > a tag as well? > > man_made=tower > siren=civil_defense > siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? You have to make some significant decisions of what kind of information to include about the sirens (for example, without range and/or model, you cannot derive projected coverage; without directional coverage you cannot identify nearest covering siren). Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Some jurisdictions (mostly cities) are open with their siren locations, some of them are very protective (mostly those places whose sirens have been subjected to attacks by siren hackers in the past or who have particularly significant security concerns). Mapping site specific sirens (like those used for electric generation facilities) can especially draw scrutiny. As for the feasibility, I recently did a project to map 210 sirens from aerial photos and ground work, and it was virtually impossible without prior knowledge of the siren locations and high resolution aerial oblique photos. In all, it took about 60 hours of work (and that was with a list of locations). --Brett Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:41:37 -0500 From: Jeffrey Ollie Subject: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens? To: talk-us Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren However, I can't find any existing examples and either I'm tired or coming down with something but I can't really think of a good way to tag these either. As for rendering, we could use the International Civil Defense symbol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CivilDefence.svg Might make a good project of the week too... -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> >> Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking >> at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you >> know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery >> available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google >> imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think >> that's appropriate. > > Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own > example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a > proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map > is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? There are plenty of examples of ground-level photos of civil defense sirens in the Wikipedia article I linked... Linking to Google Maps to provide examples of how civil defense sirens appear in aerial photography is frowned upon I'm sure. > I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be > a tag as well? > > man_made=tower > siren=civil_defense I was also able to figure out that tagstat would let me do a search, and I found that there are 8 examples of man_made=siren, mostly in Europe I think. man_made=tower makes sense too, if you want to consider tall wooden poles a tower. > siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) Yes, that makes sense as well. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > >>> > >>> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > >>> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > >> > >> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if > the > >> international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are you kidding me? What part of > "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals > " > leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) > > Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. > wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, > the more likely it is to be selected. Sorry, the real reason I said that was because it's pretty difficult for remote people to see sirens from aerial imagery and the US ground force for mapping isn't huge (especially in the midwestern states where these sirens are most prevalent). It's still a good idea, though. I'll work on a Project of the Week page later this afternoon. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >>> >>> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it >>> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: >> >> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the >> international folks aren't willing to help :). Are you kidding me? What part of "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals " leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, the more likely it is to be selected. >> Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? > > Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking > at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you > know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery > available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google > imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think > that's appropriate. Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? >> Perhaps we could start >> researching which states/areas have active sirens? Better to mobilize the crowd to map them. We'll get better quality from mappers than from an import. And mappers adding sirens are more likely to tag the rest of the park with the playground, sport field an water fountain. > Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in > "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary > to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is > imminent severe weather. I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be a tag as well? man_made=tower siren=civil_defense siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > >> > >> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > >> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if > the > > international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? > > Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking > at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you > know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery > available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google > imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think > that's appropriate. > > > Perhaps we could start > > researching which states/areas have active sirens? > > Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in > "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary > to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is > imminent severe weather. > > The folks over on "The Siren Board" http://www.airraidsirens.com/forums/index.php seem to have done a bunch of work on this already. At least here in Minnesota they've created a Google Map with a bunch of pins for sirens they've found. I believe Minnesota keeps siren locations in some GIS database somewhere. I've seen the shapefile before but forgot where. I wonder if other states do the same. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> >> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it >> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the > international folks aren't willing to help :). > Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think that's appropriate. > Perhaps we could start > researching which states/areas have active sirens? Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is imminent severe weather. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren > > However, I can't find any existing examples and either I'm tired or > coming down with something but I can't really think of a good way to > tag these either. As for rendering, we could use the International > Civil Defense symbol: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CivilDefence.svg > > Might make a good project of the week too... > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the international folks aren't willing to help :). Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? Perhaps we could start researching which states/areas have active sirens? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren However, I can't find any existing examples and either I'm tired or coming down with something but I can't really think of a good way to tag these either. As for rendering, we could use the International Civil Defense symbol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CivilDefence.svg Might make a good project of the week too... -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > good summary. and because of the rule "fast food to be avoided" I rarely map > these. and interestingly I see more real restaurants and cafe in osm. are > most mappers foodies? I tend to map whatever is on the ground, despite my feelings about whatever services may be offered or what is represented. I think it would be nice to add a "restaurant guide" to the wiki that lists generally agreed-upon tags for popular chains like we are discussing, or have an easy interface into tagwatch or similar to see what other people are actually tagging on these businesses. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] plea for bot quality control
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I think it would be a good idea to create a repository of such tagging > standards where everyone can create new standards to his heart's > content, and the user of an editor can then select one of the existing > standards (or create a new one). - That would most likely create a > situation in which a few popular tagging standards emerge, and a certain > competition among these will help create something really good in the > long run without ever having to have something "authoritative". > > I like this idea a lot, Frederik. I imagine something like a presets file that all editors could parse to display commonly-used key/value pairs. Each would have a description (optionally i18nized (so that "motorway" would describe a "highway" in the US and an actual "motorway" in the UK)) and perhaps could be auto-updated weekly from the planet file. That way JOSM and Potlatch could present suggestions that are broader than just the currently-loaded OSM file (in JOSM's case) and some preset file (in Potlatch's case). Perhaps some simplified editor could only show the top X values for a given tag (ranked by use in the wild) while a more advanced editor could show a whole lot more. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On 3 May 2010, at 5:18 , Greg Troxel wrote: > > Katie Filbert writes: > >> * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) > > This is the missing ice cream shop I think. But if they serve other > food, it's made to order, and they have table service - restaurant. > >> * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) > > tough call > >> * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) > > cafe - food is made to order, and while fast, it's real food. > > Basically my rules are: > > restaurant: full menu, table service, can walk in for dinner or lunch > and get a proper meal > > fast food: pre-made hamburgers etc. with counter ordering. tends to > be not 'real food' from the foodie-nut point of view. definitely > burger king etc. is this category. I also put dunkin donuts in this > category. > > cafe: place to get coffee and light food, typically no table service, > but limited menu. (You may ask: what's the difference between cafe and > fast food? 1) cafe has 'real food' vs chemically engineered > pseudofood. 2) cafe tends to be a nice place to go vs a place to go > when you don't have time to eat and are desparate. That has lots of > bias, but it's an important distinction. I'd put starbucks here, just > barely. independent coffee shops almost certainly. > > ice cream stand - this is tough, and it's sort of like a cafe that has > ice cream instead. > > I try to think: what will map users want to know. This is all heading > down the slippery slope of a full ontology for the world and also > encoding judgement. My bias is clear: a cafe is a nice place to go, > fast food is to be avoided. > good summary. and because of the rule "fast food to be avoided" I rarely map these. and interestingly I see more real restaurants and cafe in osm. are most mappers foodies? > ___ > Tagging mailing list > tagg...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] plea for bot quality control
Hi, Chris Hunter wrote: > Perhaps a bot to auto-ban accounts that are running unauthorized bots ;) I'm with you on implementing measures to allow a stricter control of automated edits. > One of the other things that OSM desperately needs is a way to > coordinate tagging across editors and renderers. Yes I know that the > traditional answer is "tag for reality, not for the renderer", but in > all seriousness, the data is useless without renderers and vice-versa. As long as that coordination happens voluntarily and by evolution and good information rather than be vote and decree, yes that would be a good idea. > I haven't had the time lately to check-in with the US SOTM group, but > I'd like to see a schema file for tags that have gone through the > approval process that JOSM, mkgmap, Mapnik, Potlatch, etc... can all read. While it is certainly possible to provide such a file and certainly possible for editors to support it, I am 99% sure that no sane editor will limit itself to tags that have gone through one approval process or the other. > Obviously, the file would need to be kept centralized and only be > writable by a limited number of people. No, that is not at all obivous. If you intend to create a file that has a certain "authority" and writability only for a select elite then I can assure you that it will be sidelined. I think it would be a good idea to create a repository of such tagging standards where everyone can create new standards to his heart's content, and the user of an editor can then select one of the existing standards (or create a new one). - That would most likely create a situation in which a few popular tagging standards emerge, and a certain competition among these will help create something really good in the long run without ever having to have something "authoritative". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
Katie Filbert writes: > * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) This is the missing ice cream shop I think. But if they serve other food, it's made to order, and they have table service - restaurant. > * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) tough call > * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) cafe - food is made to order, and while fast, it's real food. Basically my rules are: restaurant: full menu, table service, can walk in for dinner or lunch and get a proper meal fast food: pre-made hamburgers etc. with counter ordering. tends to be not 'real food' from the foodie-nut point of view. definitely burger king etc. is this category. I also put dunkin donuts in this category. cafe: place to get coffee and light food, typically no table service, but limited menu. (You may ask: what's the difference between cafe and fast food? 1) cafe has 'real food' vs chemically engineered pseudofood. 2) cafe tends to be a nice place to go vs a place to go when you don't have time to eat and are desparate. That has lots of bias, but it's an important distinction. I'd put starbucks here, just barely. independent coffee shops almost certainly. ice cream stand - this is tough, and it's sort of like a cafe that has ice cream instead. I try to think: what will map users want to know. This is all heading down the slippery slope of a full ontology for the world and also encoding judgement. My bias is clear: a cafe is a nice place to go, fast food is to be avoided. pgprE13mC4zAW.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:41 AM, John Smith wrote: > On 3 May 2010 20:30, Katie Filbert wrote: > > True... I think use of disposable plates, cups, utensils is more common > in > > the US. Whether or not the place has table service might be a better > > consideration. What criteria do you use to decide? > > Why does it need to be a unifying criteria? > > Provide the tags, people will come up with their own criteria based on > their own cultural background, while they will be similar, there will > be subtle differences. > > So it's okay for, say all the Burger Kings, to be inconsistently tagged... some as amenity=fast_food, some as amenity=restaurant? I would prefer to see some tagging consistency across chains... especially chains that have locations mainly in the US (or Canada) such as the ones listed, but curious if others prefer otherwise. For these chains, I'm interested in feedback on how people would tag them. -Katie > ___ > Tagging mailing list > tagg...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com @filbertkm ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:49 AM, John Smith wrote: > On 3 May 2010 19:39, Katie Filbert wrote: > > To guide the fast food or restaurant question, I consider whether food is > > paid for prior to eating (e.g. at a counter) and whether or not > disposable > > plates, utensils, etc. are used. This is often consistent with criteria > > used in classifying places for zoning purposes. > > This may not be consistent world wide... > True... I think use of disposable plates, cups, utensils is more common in the US. Whether or not the place has table service might be a better consideration. What criteria do you use to decide? -Katie > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > tagg...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Fast food vs. restaurant vs. cafe
I'm interested in feedback on how to tag particular chain restaurants/places. I have a copy of the OSM planet database and see inconsistencies in how these places are tagged. * Baskin Robbins (fast food?) * Chipotle Mexican Grill (fast food or restaurant?) * COSI (restaurant or cafe?) * Five Guys (restaurant or fast food?) * Fuddruckers (restaurant or fast food?) * Panera Bread (restaurant or cafe?) * Pizza Hut (restaurant or fast food?) * Potbelly (restaurant or cafe?) others? I set up a wiki page where you can give feedback, or feedback on the mailing list is fine too. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag_guide To guide the fast food or restaurant question, I consider whether food is paid for prior to eating (e.g. at a counter) and whether or not disposable plates, utensils, etc. are used. This is often consistent with criteria used in classifying places for zoning purposes. http://bit.ly/96j7HB (DC zoning - PDF) http://bit.ly/cvh1X4 (Scituate, Massachusetts - PDF) http://bit.ly/cnAq2J (Jupiter, Florida - PDF) Regards, Katie -- Katie Filbert @filbertkm ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
