[Talk-us] GeoBus call tonight
There will be a GeoBus call tonight at 8pm Eastern Time. Part of the agenda for this evening will be discussing the new Community Events and Mapping Party work group: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/United_States/Working_Groups/Community_Events The idea is to merge these two projects together because they will both mutually benefit from the other. The other topics for this evening include: - Fayetteville, GA Mapping Party - Repository for Mapping Party documentation - Party Marketing - Failures / Successes - Objectives - Common tasks to make it easy for anyone to run a mapping party - How this new group will affect the GeoBus project - Magnets / Stickers / Marketing ideas If you're interested in joining: Tonight's Call is at 8:00pm Eastern Time The Call In Number is: 218-486-3891 x663610833 -- Jim McAndrew ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
This discussion, although amazingly lengthy is seeming useful. Someone already explained that much of New England is different from most of the United States in terms of not having unicorporated areas, and it might help to explain details. In Massachusetts, we have counties. Counties don't do that much in terms of government, but have things like the District Attorney and Sherriff. I think that each cities/town or at least the vast majority are in a single county. Every bit of land in the state is in some city or town. Cities and towns are basically the same thing except that cities (to first order) have a city council and a mayor, and towns have a board of selectmen and a town meeting (direct or representative). There are some towns that are bigger than some cities - the issue is form of government, not size - although mostly the big places are cities and smaller are towns. Within some cities there are neighborhood-type divisions that have significant cultural standing, and I'm unclear on whether any of them have legal standing. Newton is an example where the 'villages' are said by wikipedia not to have legal standing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton,_Massachusetts So using one admin_level for county and another for city/town seems fine, and then if a city/town really has a legal notion of neighborhood admin_level=9 will be fine. Also in Massachusetts there are place names for areas of towns. Generally these refer to what was once a cluster of houses in colonial or mid-19th-century times. But these aren't appropriate for admin_level because a) they have no legal standing and b) they don't have crisp boundaries. To me this clearly points out the difference between names for governmental areas and place names that would exist without government. pgpLzlPzSrkqL.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote: Only in those 11 states, right? I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by state level. Why treat it differently depending on the state? Because states do things so differently that a one-size-fits-all solution makes no sense. I can see both points. So I think the challenge is to design a scheme that is consistent and can be simplified on a state-by-state basis to be appropriate for the state. So if we have whole-multiple-counties=5 (eg NYC) county=6 township=7 city/town=8 then it would make sense everywhere. pgptTeKP8sz4m.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com writes: Read the link you provided: In the remaining nine town or township states (Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, and Wisconsin), there is no geographic overlapping of these two kinds of units. (In Wisconsin and the New England states they're called towns.) In Mass cities and towns are the same thing for this discussion. (And I agree they don't overlap.) pgpa0oyjVSGix.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: So if we have whole-multiple-counties=5 (eg NYC) county=6 township=7 city/town=8 then it would make sense everywhere. What would be an example of a township that would be at admin_level=7? On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: In Massachusetts, we have counties. Counties don't do that much in terms of government, but have things like the District Attorney and Sherriff. So...if they don't do that much, should they be mapped as admin_level? I was told that school districts don't count, because they don't do enough, which has me totally confused as to what it is we're supposed to be mapping. Is there anyone else who, in the United States, uses the notion of admin_level? In other words, the notion that administrative districts across the entire country can be ranked from 1-9 (or 1 to whatever)? The big problem is that that administrative districts in the US aren't really hierarchical, or, at least, many of them are not. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 03:47 PM, Anthony wrote: 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_civil_division So far all (three) of the states I've checked fit fine with admin_level=6 for county equivalent, and admin_level=8 for municipality. I’ve recorded what I’ve found at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level along with some relevant references. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 03:59 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly what municipality or minor civil division means for each state. Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_municipalities Can someone please turn off my need to constantly enter a capatcha (User:User_5528)? You can stop this by using interwiki links like [[wikipedia:Page on wikipedia]] instead of external links like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page on wikipedia]. You’ll still need to use the CAPTCHA for other external links though. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 03:59 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly what municipality or minor civil division means for each state. Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_municipalities Can someone please turn off my need to constantly enter a capatcha (User:User_5528)? Is it because you’re adding external references? That always triggers a CAPTCHA… —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. If you edit-war with each other again you should both be banned. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. Do you have your mail client set to ignore the others? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
I agree with Richard but I don't want to feed the trolls by responding (which is the policy of several other mailing list readers I know). On Oct 21, 2010 4:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. Do you have your mail client set to ignore the others? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Richard but I don't want to feed the trolls by responding (which is the policy of several other mailing list readers I know). I'm not sure what the point of this thread was then. All I got from it was: *If I ever get bored with OSM I can go out with a bang and take Paul with me *Apparently I don't really believe I'm correct, and the reason I edit warred was trolling (?) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Ah what the hell I'm sitting around at an airport with extra troll food... Nathan, you said yourself that you only edit-warred because you were trying to get the foundation's attention. I would call that trolling, yes. I guess that came out wrong - I believed and still believe my edits to be correct; the reason I edit-warred rather than pursuing another method of dispute resolution was that no other such method seems to exist. Map what's on the ground and quit bickering. I find it amusing that you say this when the whole argument is over Paul's mapping of something that's not only not on the ground but disputed. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
Hi, Nathan Edgars II wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? We have discussed the issue and decided that: 1. We would prefer if both parties could behave like grown-ups, amicably resolve the matter (or at least find a compromise that both can live with), document their resolution on the list, and proceed to let OSM flourish. We believe that this is not impossible, indeed it is what most others in OSM do all the time. 2. In the absence of such amicable resolution, we will ban any party continuing or provoking an edit war. For the avoidance of doubt, any edit made by either party to an object previously edited by the other party is extremely likely to result in a ban. 3. We will not be drawn into further discussion about this. Edit wars are not an acceptable means of settling a dispute *even* if one is right. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
+1 On Oct 21, 2010, at 3:16 PM, Ian Dees wrote: I agree with Richard but I don't want to feed the trolls by responding (which is the policy of several other mailing list readers I know). On Oct 21, 2010 4:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. Do you have your mail client set to ignore the others? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Steve stevecoast.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 3. We will not be drawn into further discussion about this. Edit wars are not an acceptable means of settling a dispute *even* if one is right. What would have been the correct means of settling the dispute then? I tried talking to Blackadder, one of the people listed on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes, and he said Eventually you will hopefully reach consensus, if not and it becomes a dispute I can help you and the other party(s) to resolve the issue amicably. Where was this help? Was I misadvised? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. As Ian said, the rest of us just haven't been stirring the pot. I agree with Richard and Ian. While I like the Wikipedia concept of be bold in editing, we don't need edit wars. I personally have been a contentious troll myself at times, and I find I need to back off, take a breather, and chill out some. I think both of you would benefit likewise, and OSM would be better off. - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
i'm with Richard as well. richard On 10/21/10 5:16 PM, Ian Dees wrote: I agree with Richard but I don't want to feed the trolls by responding (which is the policy of several other mailing list readers I know). On Oct 21, 2010 4:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com mailto:nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com mailto:rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com mailto:nerou...@gmail.com wrote: This discussion seems to have ended. Is it time to play spot the consensus yet? I've spotted the consensus. Stop your bickering. Either come to an agreement about this tagging, or ignore each other, but absolutely stop picking on each other. You and Frederick seem to be the only ones with that view who contributed to this thread. Do you have your mail client set to ignore the others? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
Hi, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 3. We will not be drawn into further discussion about this. Edit wars are not an acceptable means of settling a dispute *even* if one is right. What would have been the correct means of settling the dispute then? I tried talking to Blackadder, one of the people listed on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes, and he said Eventually you will hopefully reach consensus, if not and it becomes a dispute I can help you and the other party(s) to resolve the issue amicably. Where was this help? Was I misadvised? We have very limited resources that we can deploy to conflict resolution, and we have to allocate them wisely. The matter you are quarrelling about is of negligible relevance to the project as a whole and nobody can honestly expect us to deal with it in detail from a distance. When Blackadder advised you of the general course of such things, he had probably not understood the non-scale of this issue. I suggest that you ignore Paul's tagging as long as he uses it in his local area. If you can't manage to do that, maybe try a Yoga class. Cool down. Paul's tagging sure is quirky but who knows, sometimes these quirky things lead to something cool built on top of them. If not, then they will die out by themselves. No need for you to police Paul's harmless edits *even* *if* *they* *should* *be* *wrong*. Do you know the saying the wiser head gives in? This is the very last comment I'll make on this issue because it becomes hard for me to remain polite. The next thing either of you is going to read from me is the ban message if you continue your edit war. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 10/20/2010 03:59 PM, Anthony wrote: Can someone please turn off my need to constantly enter a capatcha (User:User_5528)? Is it because you’re adding external references? That always triggers a CAPTCHA… I can't be marked as a confirmed user or something to make it go away? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request for community mediation
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I suggest that you ignore Paul's tagging as long as he uses it in his local area. If you can't manage to do that, maybe try a Yoga class. Cool down. Paul's tagging sure is quirky but who knows, sometimes these quirky things lead to something cool built on top of them. If not, then they will die out by themselves. No need for you to police Paul's harmless edits *even* *if* *they* *should* *be* *wrong*. Do you know the saying the wiser head gives in? +1 there is so much to do in US. absolute no need to fight anyones edit as long as they don't break things ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 10/21/2010 08:06 AM, Anthony wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.com wrote: So if we have whole-multiple-counties=5 (eg NYC) county=6 township=7 city/town=8 then it would make sense everywhere. What would be an example of a township that would be at admin_level=7? This question of mine was quoted but still not answered. So...if they don't do that much, should they be mapped as admin_level? I was told that school districts don't count, because they don't do enough, which has me totally confused as to what it is we're supposed to be mapping. It’s not about whether they do that much; it’s about whether they’re administered by a government. School boards are a part of the government yes, but they’re don’t govern the districts that they cover. Absolutely they do. Compare to postal codes…yes, it’s from an agency of the government but a post office does not govern the area that it serves. There's no comparison. Postal codes are numbers assigned to addresses. They're not even geographic areas, let alone geographic areas which limit the jurisdiction of the elected officials who serve on the governing board of them. Were the post office a tax-sponsored government service, which was broken up by geographic area, and had elected officials governing each geographic area, who decided what services to provide, who imposed taxes on residents of that geographic area, and who had the power of eminent domain within that geographic area, and if each such geographic area was assigned a postal code, then there would be a comparison. But none of that is true. Is there anyone else who, in the United States, uses the notion of admin_level? In other words, the notion that administrative districts across the entire country can be ranked from 1-9 (or 1 to whatever)? The big problem is that that administrative districts in the US aren't really hierarchical, or, at least, many of them are not. The point of admin_level is *not* primarily to record which governments are above another. It’s to indicate which governments across different countries and states are (approximately) equivalent. Then we shouldn't use numbers, or if we're going to use numbers we should assign those numbers in random order. e.g. in the US, counties are counties are counties are Louisiana parishes are Alaska Boroughs are Virginia counties and cities and are at the same level as municipalities in Mexico, /powiaty/ in Poland, districts in Turkey, etc. Same level? What does the level mean if you aren't saying which one is above the other? Saying that there are levels implies one is above the other. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
