Re: [Talk-us] Gated communities - access=private or destination?

[Dale Puch]

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access does not seem to
differentiate very well.  They effectively seem the same, other than
destination might refer to specific objects inside of private access areas.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:access#Gated_Communities ...
Note really any help other than what a few others did.

Perhaps start with better definitions and examples of such, then decide the
tagging.

-- 
Dale Puch

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> In the U.S., a gated residential community usually allows anyone in who
> has a legitimate reason to be there (e.g. visiting a friend, delivering a
> package, repairing a TV). It seems that this fits access=destination as
> well as private. Would it be reasonable to tag it as such, and leave
> access=private for secondary entrances that lack a guard and can only be
> opened by residents?
>
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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Dale Puch]

Documentation!  I think what you did is exactly what is needed.  It may or
may not need improvements.  If what is "decided" in the newsgroups is not
put down in the wiki then the discussion was not finished to a point
someone could sum it up for the masses to follow.  Then post a link here
for everyone to review.

There are always different types of people.  Some need step by step
instructions, other just an overview and they research it from there.
Sometimes simply stating which type of instructions before starting is
fine.  If it is something that others will need to know then make a wiki
page and answer by pointing them there.  Especially if it took much work to
answer the question.

Stating up front:
"Importing is generally a technical endeavor and anyone not willing to do a
bit of digging to learn new things will find it frustrating.  This is just
an overview of the steps.  Detailed instructions for some or all of the
steps may be on the wiki under imports (link) and learning to use each
piece of software may also be required."

That said great software design would make imports easy...  It just take a
great programmer that understands the beginner mapper, but can map with the
masters and a LOT of programming. :p

Dale

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Josh Doe  wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Charlotte Wolter 
> wrote:
> > The exchange between Frank Cox and others about importing data is a
> perfect
> > example of an ongoing problem with this list: Many of the discussions and
> > "answers" are simply too GIS geeky for the vast majority of us.
>
> I'm not entirely sure this is helping to address your concerns, but I
> just created a checklist for importing which should help:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#A_checklist
>
> The goal is to provide a quick overview of the steps in importing
> data. This can certainly be expanded, so please do so.
>
> Replies should probably go to the imports@ list rather than talk-us@,
> since it's not talk-us@ specific.
>
> -Josh
>
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-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Excellent progress, u.s.

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-04-12 17:36, you wrote:
I see excellent progress in California during the recent eight days of 
re-mapping.  If you are an editing maniac...


Can you comment on your process? I see very little real, coordinated info 
about tools, concrete solutions, or teamwork. As a formerly quite active 
SoCal mapper, I'm basically just dead in the water, wondering how much of 
my hard work has just been discarded (e.g. speed-limits, lanes, turn 
restrictions, source references, carefully aligned geometries, etc.) and 
whether to bother trying to get it back. I can't possibly be alone (?).


I can't even find any info on the redaction. What is the plan? Where is it 
now? How can I see what it's doing? Shouldn't there be a big, bold link to 
this kind of info on the wiki main page?


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Josh Doe]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Charlotte Wolter  wrote:
> The exchange between Frank Cox and others about importing data is a perfect
> example of an ongoing problem with this list: Many of the discussions and
> "answers" are simply too GIS geeky for the vast majority of us.

I'm not entirely sure this is helping to address your concerns, but I
just created a checklist for importing which should help:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#A_checklist

The goal is to provide a quick overview of the steps in importing
data. This can certainly be expanded, so please do so.

Replies should probably go to the imports@ list rather than talk-us@,
since it's not talk-us@ specific.

-Josh

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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Randal Hale]

..and I'll end my part in this with this - I've contacted the two people 
I am interested in helping. I will talk to them and work our way through 
the problem. I am interested in getting more people editing - not 
arguing over the technical.


As for imports - I guess I shouldn't have imported the NHD data for my 
region. But I did. I've improved it since the import. Parts failed - 
parts worked well - I've done what I can to make it better overall. I 
will import more data when appropriate - when it's not appropriate I 
will get out and manually collect and edit the data.


Ask not what OSM can do for you - Ask what you can do to make the map 
better. We're all here to do that and attract users and editors - making 
answers cryptic, offering up blanket statements on user experience,  and 
not offering help won't do it.


Have a nice day
Randy


Randal Hale, GISP
North River Geographic Systems, Inc
http://www.northrivergeographic.com
423.653.3611 rjh...@northrivergeographic.com
twitter:rjhale
http://about.me/rjhale


On 4/15/2012 5:27 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

Also, the original mail in this thread was on imports, which is by its
nature, a technical list.

Folks who don't have a *ton* of experience shouldn't do imports, and
folks with a ton of experience don't do imports.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Serge Wroclawski]

Also, the original mail in this thread was on imports, which is by its
nature, a technical list.

Folks who don't have a *ton* of experience shouldn't do imports, and
folks with a ton of experience don't do imports.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Randal Hale]

So I missed the whole exchange - so I read what little I see below and 
here are my thoughts.


I don't think it's too GIS geeky - it's too OSM geeky.  There are too 
many ways to get to a common goal - adding data. You can import, GPS, 
walk around, etc etc.


There almost needs to be a list serve or a forum for new people - 
somewhere you can walk people through editing woes and problems. I agree 
- this list does get too bogged down in details.


Don't take the following as a complaint -  but is someone says "So lets 
say that I ask for a sample GeoTIFF, which I assume is just a big 
graphic file similar to any other TIFF file (or jpg or whatever)" an 
answer of "For the first one you install gdal with python bindings, run 
gdal2tiles" (and it's a Excellent  answer and I'm going to try it myself 
on a geotiff I have here) but it's going to be too confusing for someone 
new especially someone in the potlatch arena or a new user just getting 
started.


Don't assume a technical question needs a technical answer. Start Simple 
- build from there.


Randy

Randal Hale, GISP
North River Geographic Systems, Inc
http://www.northrivergeographic.com
423.653.3611 rjh...@northrivergeographic.com
twitter:rjhale
http://about.me/rjhale


On 4/15/2012 2:37 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
The exchange between Frank Cox and others about importing data is a 
perfect example of an ongoing problem with this list: Many of the 
discussions and "answers" are simply too GIS geeky for the vast 
majority of us.
Frank asked for a simple "do x then do y" kind of explanation. Several 
members replied, but no one but Paul Norman tried to give him that 
kind of answer. Unfortunately, Paul's answer contained a lot of GIS 
technical language. Obviously, he's very knowlegeable, but he didn't 
put the explanation at a level where Frank and the rest ofus could 
understand it.
That's why reading the list often is frustrating. There's a lot of 
talk about technical issues and minutiae, but little guidance for 
those of us who just want to map using Potlatch 2, which is most of 
us. (By the way, what is a "network," and where is it in Potlatch 
coding?) Also, sometimes there are snippy disputes about issues that 
seem obscure, which makes the list occasionally unpleasant to read. 
Again, for those of us who just want to map, this isn't helpful.

What can be done to make Talk-US more useful for the average mapper?

Charlotte


At 04:59 PM 4/14/2012, you wrote:

> From: Frank Cox [mailto:thea...@melvilletheatre.com]
> Subject: Re: [Imports] tiff, dwg and nad83
>
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:34:49 -0700
> Paul Norman wrote:
>
> > What I would suggest is to start with the GeoTiffs and go from there.
>
> All righty, now we're getting somewhere.
>
> So lets say that I ask for a sample GeoTIFF, which I assume is just a
> big graphic file similar to any other TIFF file (or jpg or whatever).
> The engineering department has these things (we assume), so he gives me
> a copy of one of them.
>
> I carry this thing home on my trusty flash drive (or whatever), plug it
> into my computer, and now I have a graphic file on my computer that I
> didn't have before.
>
> What now?

Depending on how big it is, you can either tile it with gdal2tiles[1] or
serve it with mapserver[2].

For the first one you install gdal with python bindings, run 
gdal2tiles on

the geotiff, use a script (http://paste.ubuntu.com/928312/) to fix some
names, and serve that with apache. JOSM or Potlatch can then use it as a
background layer.

For the second one you install gdal and mapserver and tell it to 
serve the
geotiff and then you can add it as a background layer with JOSM or 
Potlatch.


I had a look at your town and given that it's a very small town and 
the bing
imagery is actually quite good, I don't know that it's worth doing 
any sort
of import. If you wanted street names you could get them from 
CanVec[3]. Of

course collecting street names also gives you a chance to tag businesses,
amenities, etc.

[1] http://gdal.org/
[2] http://mapserver.org/
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CanVec



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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Charlotte Wolter  wrote:
> The exchange between Frank Cox and others about importing data is a perfect
> example of an ongoing problem with this list: Many of the discussions and
> "answers" are simply too GIS geeky for the vast majority of us.

Any discussion regarding import of data is going to be technical. The
answer to anyone who find a technical discussion about imports
difficult or overly complex should be a request for them not to do
anything.

> Frank asked for a simple "do x then do y" kind of explanation. Several
> members replied, but no one but Paul Norman tried to give him that kind of
> answer. Unfortunately, Paul's answer contained a lot of GIS technical
> language. Obviously, he's very knowlegeable, but he didn't put the
> explanation at a level where Frank and the rest ofus could understand it.

For the vast majority of editors, this is a non-issue. Frank could be
doing a normal survey and have no trouble at all. But what he brought
was a fairly complex, technical request, and what he got back were a
series of technical answers. He may not have understood them, but they
were at the same complexity as the original question.

> That's why reading the list often is frustrating. There's a lot of talk
> about technical issues and minutiae, but little guidance for those of us who
> just want to map using Potlatch 2, which is most of us.

Let's not mix up this with the original request. The original request
was highly technical.

> What can be done to make Talk-US more useful for the average mapper?

Ask not what OSM can do for you, ask you can do for OSM.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] tiff, dwg and nad83

[Charlotte Wolter]

The exchange between Frank Cox and others about importing data is a 
perfect example of an ongoing problem with this list: Many of the 
discussions and "answers" are simply too GIS geeky for the vast 
majority of us.
Frank asked for a simple "do x then do y" kind of explanation. 
Several members replied, but no one but Paul Norman tried to give him 
that kind of answer. Unfortunately, Paul's answer contained a lot of 
GIS technical language. Obviously, he's very knowlegeable, but he 
didn't put the explanation at a level where Frank and the rest ofus 
could understand it.
That's why reading the list often is frustrating. There's a lot of 
talk about technical issues and minutiae, but little guidance for 
those of us who just want to map using Potlatch 2, which is most of 
us. (By the way, what is a "network," and where is it in Potlatch 
coding?) Also, sometimes there are snippy disputes about issues that 
seem obscure, which makes the list occasionally unpleasant to read. 
Again, for those of us who just want to map, this isn't helpful.

What can be done to make Talk-US more useful for the average mapper?

Charlotte


At 04:59 PM 4/14/2012, you wrote:

> From: Frank Cox [mailto:thea...@melvilletheatre.com]
> Subject: Re: [Imports] tiff, dwg and nad83
>
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:34:49 -0700
> Paul Norman wrote:
>
> > What I would suggest is to start with the GeoTiffs and go from there.
>
> All righty, now we're getting somewhere.
>
> So lets say that I ask for a sample GeoTIFF, which I assume is just a
> big graphic file similar to any other TIFF file (or jpg or whatever).
> The engineering department has these things (we assume), so he gives me
> a copy of one of them.
>
> I carry this thing home on my trusty flash drive (or whatever), plug it
> into my computer, and now I have a graphic file on my computer that I
> didn't have before.
>
> What now?

Depending on how big it is, you can either tile it with gdal2tiles[1] or
serve it with mapserver[2].

For the first one you install gdal with python bindings, run gdal2tiles on
the geotiff, use a script (http://paste.ubuntu.com/928312/) to fix some
names, and serve that with apache. JOSM or Potlatch can then use it as a
background layer.

For the second one you install gdal and mapserver and tell it to serve the
geotiff and then you can add it as a background layer with JOSM or Potlatch.

I had a look at your town and given that it's a very small town and the bing
imagery is actually quite good, I don't know that it's worth doing any sort
of import. If you wanted street names you could get them from CanVec[3]. Of
course collecting street names also gives you a chance to tag businesses,
amenities, etc.

[1] http://gdal.org/
[2] http://mapserver.org/
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CanVec



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Re: [Talk-us] Work to be done

[Alexander Jones]

Chris Lawrence wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Alexander Jones
>  wrote:
>> The city boundaries near San Antonio probably have to be reimported. It's
>> a nightmare to work with, and I don't have the requisite multipolygon
>> experience to do such a major task.
> 
> The TX boundaries in general are a mess... it was my first attempt at
> getting the city boundaries in general and it shows, alas.  I'll see
> what I can do (I have a busy month but I can probably at least get
> started).

There are three boundary relations for Baytown. ;)

>> Also, the I-10 relation in Texas is way too big (over 2000 members). I
>> likely could take care of this myself, but I'd like to know where I
>> should split it.
> 
> Splitting into eastbound and westbound relations would help (and
> probably needs to be done eventually for all the interstates anyway to
> support directional signage in GPS apps correctly).  Beyond that...
> I'd guess logical split points would be:
> 
> The I-20 split
> Somewhere in San Antonio (either the north or south end of the I-35
> multiplex). I-45 in Houston

Done. The way counts for the relations are as follows:


   Range   |Eastbound|Westbound
 NM - I 20 |   230   |   225
I 20 - I 35|   313   |   331
I 35 - I 45|   297   |   298
 I 45 - LA |   194   |   193


Perhaps the I-20 divider should be moved. Maybe to Fort Stockton?

Which one should I do next?

-Alexander


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Re: [Talk-us] Excellent progress, u.s.

[Toby Murray]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:26 PM, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
> andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
>
>> On 14 April 2012 03:30, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
>> > One drawback to this new-coordinate technique is that, in some
>> cases, the tainted nodes will have been in the proper locations to
>> match the real world.  So, in order to make the cleanup bot not
>> consider the nodes to be tainted, we have to knowingly make the map
>> data less accurate than it had formerly been.
>> >
>>
>> It also will remain tainted, only the bot will not know about it and
>> consider it untainted.  So it's a way to trick the bot and potentially
>> put the OSM Foundation under legal risk.
>>
>> This is why the remapping effort before the bot run is finished, is a
>> Really Bad Idea.  It is both more time costly and it is provoking
>> users to cause incompatible IP to be preserved over the license
>> change, often unconsciously.  See all the ideas of using the
>> incompatible IP to create the new "compatible IP", such as using the
>> tainted coastlines data to remap small islands.  (RichardF said he
>> does not agree it's a bad idea, but he wouldn't explain which point he
>> disagrees with or why)
>>
>> Cheers
>
> I was assuming that there was an additional data source, such as aerial 
> photos and/or GPS traces, which could be used to judge the accuracy of the 
> tainted node.  As I understand the way the bot judges taintedness, if you 
> delete a tainted node, then insert a replacement node in the same location, 
> the new node is also considered tainted even though it was added by someone 
> who agreed to the new license terms, and even though that might be the 
> correct location to mark the corner of a polygon.

Any new (version 1) node created by someone who has accepted the new
terms is clean and will be in the ODbL planet. The only exception
might be if it is an untagged node that is a member of a dirty way
that gets deleted. Although I'm not totally sure about this. If this
doesn't happen, we will end up with probably millions of orphaned
nodes. Also, the only way to replace a node with the exact same
location is to copy/paste it. It is virtually impossible for a human
to place a node at exactly the same location.

And shifting nodes by a few inches just to make it show up clean in
OSMI is definitely not ok. If a node is off and needs to be corrected,
then fine. But if you are moving it just to clean it, delete it
instead, along with any surrounding dirty nodes and recreate it based
on imagery or GPS or whatever you normally use to map. This is why I
delete all dirty nodes in a way and then use the w mode in JOSM to
recreate the geometry from clean sources.

Toby

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