Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
>
> I think the other half of the equation, however, is actually getting this
> fixed across the country. At present it appears to be just a small number
> of mappers doing it in their areas; the US is a big place, and at the
> current rate it's not going to be fixed any time soon. Drive-by tools like
> MapRoulette are generally a good solution for systemic data quality
> problems, but in this case I think the problem's too big for that.
> ... Anything else?
>
Imports. The bulk of the roads in the OSM USA came from the US Census, but
fundamentally, the TIGER data base was primarily designed to support census
activities. Besides the the Census Bureau, there are many other federal
agencies such as the BLM, BIA, DOD, etc. and their congruent state agencies
that have available detailed GIS dataset available. For example:
*The Forest Service Road System * " ... consists of more than 380,000 miles
of roads. The types of roads range from permanent, double-lane, paved
highways to single-lane, low-standard roads intended only for use by
high-clearance vehicles, such as pickup trucks." from
http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/road_mgt/qanda.shtml#Background
"A road is a motor vehicle travel way over 50 inches wide, unless
classified and managed as a trail. The II_ROAD_CORE table includes all of
the nationally required data fields representing road characteristics"
Complete metadata describing these attributes ( legal right to control or
regulate use of the route, Current physical state of being of the route
segment, Maintenance level , Surface type, etc. ) at
http://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/edw_resources/meta/S_USA.RoadCore_FS.xml -
this attribute set ('tags') collectively allows evaluation of aspects like
'passability' for different types of vehicles etc.
Data for *Motor Vehicle Use Map: Roads, **Motor Vehicle Use Map:
Trails, **National
Forest System Roads, **National Historic and National Scenic Trails *at
http://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php , overlayed on the NAIP in
QGIS:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2OUlqbVFPazVsdnc/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2OF9GM0JqdG1zMWM/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
While people work out how to remove the multitude of tiger ways that don't actually exist, downgrade others from the incorrect "residential" to "unclassified" or "track" depending on imagery or ground survey, and fix the geometry of all unedited TIGER data, I beleive that it's absolutely essential (from safety and useability perspectives) to immediately mark all these uncertain ways as unroutable. Whether to make them driveways or use access=no , I've no idea. I think thrse ways can easily be identified by... 1) They are original TIGER data import 2) They have not been edited since import 3) They are "higway=residential" 4) They are unnamed A bot could do this easily and then it really doesn't matter how long it takes to find the best solution. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
What would help here? A Tasking Manager instance with defined areas (say, 10km x 10km, or counties, or...)? Anything else? I like the idea of a TM to help here (like a cake map or somesuch), but I'd rather we slice things up by county rather than (random, 10km x 10km) grids. Reason #1 is that there is a natural hierarchy, as counties can be aggregated into states. Reason #2 is that this will naturally align to sharpening up USA county boundaries (which are spotty in many places now). Reason #3 is that much publicly accessible GIS data is maintained and available at the county level, or state level where counties are a "natural" way of breaking up the data. As I worked with another OSM volunteer on bringing in some landuse data in Monterey County, California, I have done similar with what were TIGER "residential" roads, but were really tracks in that largely rural, agricultural county. The landuse import took the two of us around six or eight weeks of some careful work, but converting TIGER residential to track (where true) took the better part of eight MONTHS, the county being something like 2/3 the size of the state of Connecticut. It still isn't done, as the southeastern portion of the county is very sparsely populated, has difficult access, and comparisons of what Bing and TIGER display are often wildly different. But such results are worth the effort, imho. Good topic, good discussion. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
On 9/1/2014 11:27 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Except I don't know if they're at all cyclable, or if I need to take the bike with knobbly tyres, or even if they exist at all. OSM in the US just isn't reliable to that level, whereas it is in Western Europe, and the Australians are also working on the issue. But in the US, I couldn't use OSM for planning a route by hand, let alone with a router, which would merrily send me down the shortest highway=residential with no knowledge of whether it's suitable or not. For the rural case and accurate route planning, it will take ground truthing to get accurate bike / foot routing - it's probably not something that could be tasked to MapRoulette/etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
Mike N. wrote: > To be honest, I don't really get the problem with excessive > 'residential', or what I'd do to fix it. If I had to study the > roads where I live, a few would be upgraded to tertiary or > changed to unclassified, and all unnamed residential would > be changed to driveway, but the end result would have > very few changes Wolfgang's right in that this is a rural problem, not a town problem. In towns, 'highway=residential' was a good guess for the TIGER import script to make. It just wasn't a good guess in rural areas. How's this a problem? Well, let's say that I want to go for a bike ride (which I do) but that I live in Oxford, Mississippi, rather than just outside Oxford, England. I want to stay away from the main roads, because I don't want to be run down. So, using OSM, I find this nice-looking area nearby with a lot of roads through it. Except I don't know if they're at all cyclable, or if I need to take the bike with knobbly tyres, or even if they exist at all. OSM in the US just isn't reliable to that level, whereas it is in Western Europe, and the Australians are also working on the issue. But in the US, I couldn't use OSM for planning a route by hand, let alone with a router, which would merrily send me down the shortest highway=residential with no knowledge of whether it's suitable or not. Paul's link to the James Kim story is an example of when this absence of knowledge (not via OSM, fortunately) went tragically wrong. I'm not pretending that this is a "people might die" situation right now, but it's something that needs to be fixed before OSM can be said to be 'navigation-ready' for consumers outside cities, large towns and interstate highways. Happily, it's a lot easier and quicker to fix than the other big gotcha (addressing) and I really hope we can get it fixed soon. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Dirt-Roads-formerly-Abandoned-railway-tp5815986p5816185.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
On 9/1/2014 9:59 AM, Wolfgang Zenker wrote: I guess you haven't done much in the rural parts of the US yet. Have a look at Lincoln County MT: You will find A LOT of tracks. Most of these had been tagged as residential highway in the TIGER import (with horrible distorted geometry of course), and no way could this have been fixed with a bot. Took me about two years to get this county into the current state. I agree that rural areas with tracks need to be manually corrected, but that's more of an issue in some areas than others. I'm wondering about the typical small town or suburb with reasonable geometry, this village for example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/34.9673/-82.4367 Perhaps another tertiary or 2, but everything else would remain residential except for the driveways. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
Hi, * Mike N [140901 14:45]: > On 9/1/2014 7:53 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> I think the other half of the equation, however, is actually getting this >> fixed across the country. At present it appears to be just a small number of >> mappers doing it in their areas; >To be honest, I don't really get the problem with excessive > 'residential', or what I'd do to fix it. If I had to study the roads > where I live, a few would be upgraded to tertiary or changed to > unclassified, and all unnamed residential would be changed to driveway, > but the end result would have very few changes (with the exception of > unnamed residential - which could be done with a bot). I guess you haven't done much in the rural parts of the US yet. Have a look at Lincoln County MT: You will find A LOT of tracks. Most of these had been tagged as residential highway in the TIGER import (with horrible distorted geometry of course), and no way could this have been fixed with a bot. Took me about two years to get this county into the current state. Wolfgang (your friendly German Guest Mapper :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
On 9/1/2014 7:53 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: I think the other half of the equation, however, is actually getting this fixed across the country. At present it appears to be just a small number of mappers doing it in their areas; To be honest, I don't really get the problem with excessive 'residential', or what I'd do to fix it. If I had to study the roads where I live, a few would be upgraded to tertiary or changed to unclassified, and all unnamed residential would be changed to driveway, but the end result would have very few changes (with the exception of unnamed residential - which could be done with a bot). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)
Richard Welty wrote: > agreed. i have spent quite a lot of time in Iowa farming > territory where the road grid consists mostly of high > quality, well maintained gravel roads that are in regular, > heavy use by farm equipment. i generally give these > highway=unclassified, surface=gravel. Great to see this issue getting some airtime. Obviously it's entirely your choice nationally as to what tags you use, as long as they don't diverge too wildly from the rest of the world. Having a distinction between highway=track and highway=unclassified;surface=gravel is certainly one possibility. It doesn't really matter as long as there's agreement and a will to fix it. I think the other half of the equation, however, is actually getting this fixed across the country. At present it appears to be just a small number of mappers doing it in their areas; the US is a big place, and at the current rate it's not going to be fixed any time soon. Drive-by tools like MapRoulette are generally a good solution for systemic data quality problems, but in this case I think the problem's too big for that. What would help here? A Tasking Manager instance with defined areas (say, 10km x 10km, or counties, or...)? Anything else? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Dirt-Roads-formerly-Abandoned-railway-tp5815986p5816149.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
