[Talk-us] Does anybody know if these PA maps are legal to use to get info from for OSM?
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_pdf_files/Maps/GHS/Roadnames/ I've been noticing lately a user in PA has been doing copying from these and other online maps available on the State of PA website to add in a lot of the quadrant routes here in the state over the past several months. I'm not 100% sure this is allowed, is it? I mean, would he have to at least verify that the license for those maps is compatible with OSM first any then also mention this somewhere on the Wiki? It's been pretty obvious in some places that he's never been there, because recently, when I was out in the field in central PA, I came across a highway that had a ref tag with '2' false highways on it, a quadrant route ref, and the only real ref that it posted on the highway. [1] The only 'posted' ref there is the "US 22 Business" one. Both of those US 522 bannered refs do not exist in the real road, and I highly doubt that they ever did since that section of highway was bypassed and mainline US-522 was moved off of it, as well as mainline US-22 (but it's part became Business US-22). I think I did see the 'quadrant route' mentioned in the ref on one of the little white signs, but those don't count for the 'ref' tag (see below). Now sure, I myself have edited in areas I've never visited, but I don't go randomly adding 'ref' tags to highways unless I can back up the changes with a legit source (the extra 'name' tags from Tiger don't count). I know a few months ago, we had a discussion here on [talk-us] about the relatively hidden 'quadrant routes' that Pennsylvania has [2]. Pretty much everybody here agreed that they shouldn't be added to the 'ref' tag since they don't have any shields. I invited this user to join in the conversation here on [talk-us] several times via PM, and each time, he claimed he was too busy to even write a quick message, but would do it 'soon', as to why he thinks that the quadrant routes should be in the ref tag, and not 'ref:penndot' since he's the main person adding them that way so his side of the story/reasoning could be heard by everybody. Since the last messages I sent him in January/February on that subject, I think he's been intentionally ignoring any message he gets from me, since I do know he's still editing. The reason I'm suggesting that is because about a month ago, I discovered a route he added in NY in an area I'm pretty familiar with, even though I haven't been there in about 4-5 years. He added a 'NY 5 Alternate' in the Silver Creak, NY area [3] along US-20, and I found that highly illogical for NYDOT to have added since that route has a really bad hill on it for trucks (that's why there's a posted US-20 Truck posted there in the field along NY-5's main route). So, I asked him about that route to see when it might have been posted (if it was a real route). I kinda have a feeling he added it based off of the faulty Tiger data overlap there, as you can see NY-5 referenced in the Tiger tags on the way mentioned in my comments on that changeset. Still, as you can see in the changeset comments, he's completely ignored me on this subject. I've even send him a few polite messages via the internal PM system asking if he could take a moment and respond to that changeset. Got nothing back from him, even though he's continued to edit via Potlatch 2 since most of my comments/messages on the NY-5 Alternate subject, so I know he's had to have at least seen the new message icon for a new PM since he's responded to me in the past. Anyways, this wouldn't be the first time he's added a possible 'false'/'no longer exist' ref tag to the OSM database and have somebody ask him questions about it. [4] (He wouldn't have even responded to this note if I hadn't have sent him a message about it.) Anyways, enough back story on this user. So, does anybody have any idea about those PA maps? I mean, if they aren't legal to be used for our purposes in OSM, then there is a shit load of stuff that would need to be 'redacted', or just deleted from the database since this user used those maps a lot in the past to add quadrant routes. So, if anybody else wants to try to contact him to see if he'll respond to you and maybe finally post here on [talk-us], be my guest since he's just ignoring me. -James [1] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/14238074 [2] - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2015-January/014157.html [3] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28741710#map=16/42.5471/-79.1594&layers=Q [4] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/309527 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Does anybody know if these PA maps are legal to use to get info from for OSM?
James Mast wrote: > I mean, would he have to at least verify that the > license for those maps is compatible with OSM first Yes, and it isn't. The licence has lots of clauses that aren't compatible with ODbL, the Contributor Terms or indeed any open licence: ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_pdf_files/Documents/Cartography/COPY_RELEASE_FORM%20(01_07).pdf That said, it might be worth someone approaching the Pennsylvania DOT to ask for permission. But as it stands, these terms aren't at all compatible. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Does-anybody-know-if-these-PA-maps-are-legal-to-use-to-get-info-from-for-OSM-tp5851488p5851489.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Survey Township Sections
A quick question: Are there any guidelines for tagging of public land survey township sections? I found a clear description of mapping civil townships for Ohio on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Boundaries/Townships, but have failed to find anything on survey townships and their sections. Jerry___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New MapRoulette challenge - fix railway crossings
It was a pleasant dive into the latest MapRoulette challenge - my impression now is that most road-rail intersections in the US have previously been touched. The stats for the fix railway challenge seem to confirm this: 75% are skipped or have been previously completed. A far cry from the "All roads from TIGER are junk and no one touches them". But there are still pockets of tangled roads in West Virginia for example. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Does anybody know if these PA maps are legal to use to get info from for OSM?
On 8/2/2015 6:14 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I mean, would he have to at least verify that the license for those maps is compatible with OSM first Yes, and it isn't. The licence has lots of clauses that aren't compatible with ODbL, the Contributor Terms or indeed any open licence: ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_pdf_files/Documents/Cartography/COPY_RELEASE_FORM%20(01_07).pdf That said, it might be worth someone approaching the Pennsylvania DOT to ask for permission. But as it stands, these terms aren't at all compatible. Richard In the document Richard refers to, the Pennsylvania DOT asserts copyright and makes many demands on how you can use the data. However, you have have to look to the state statutes to see if that is legal for them to do. Many state and local agencies throughout the US assert authority they they do not have over public records in their custody. This is a widespread problem throughout the US. Many states have been working to clarify these issues and have setup something like an "Office of Open Records" to help educate the public as well as train state and local agencies in the proper response to public records requests. A quick review of Pennsylvania shows that they have an Office of Open Records [1] and state appears to have an open attitude towards public records as defined in their Right to Know Law enacted in 2008 [2]. The Office of Open Records also has a great training document for state and local agencies that explains things well. [3] The state statute does not specifically grant agencies the authority to copyright and therefore restrict use of records, its quite the opposite. A couple of excerpts from the Pennsylvania Right to Know law: --- Section 301. Commonwealth agencies. (a) Requirement. — A Commonwealth agency shall provide public records in accordance with this act. (b) Prohibition. — A Commonwealth agency may not deny a requester access to a public record due to the intended use of the public record by the requester unless otherwise provided by law. Section 703. Written requests A written request need not include any explanation of the requester’s reason for requesting or intended use of the records unless otherwise required by law. --- Another problem around the US is many (most?) state public records laws do not explicitly mention copyright or public domain. However, this has been tested and resolved in some court cases. The court case in my home state of Florida that clarifies the copyright issue for agencies in Florida is Skinner vs. Microdecisions [3]. This case also resolved the issue of charging unfair prices for replication of data, i.e. the "cost recovery" problem that is also still widespread around the US. James, you may want to contact the Office of Open Records and review the FDOT document with them to double-check that they have no authority to assert the claims in the document and that unless otherwise exempted by law, all public records in Pennsylvania are public domain. There are exemptions to the law, but I didn't see any pertaining to highway maps. [1] http://openrecords.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/open_records/4434 [2] https://www.dced.state.pa.us/public/oor/pa_righttoknowlaw.pdf [3] https://www.dced.state.pa.us/public/oor/2014AnnualTraining.pdf [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdecisions,_Inc._v._Skinner -- Brian May MapWise Inc. 772-600-7353 www.mapwise.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Survey Township Sections
On 2015-08-02 06:43, Jerry Clough - OSM wrote: A quick question: Are there any guidelines for tagging of public land survey township sections? I found a clear description of mapping civil townships for Ohio on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Boundaries/Townships, but have failed to find anything on survey townships and their sections. Civil townships are being mapped because they correspond to actual governmental structures that have definite boundaries. Survey townships themselves don't have governments, so there's less of a case for putting them in OSM, especially where the boundary between one section and another is unclear from aerial imagery or on-the-ground observation. In any case, if you map survey townships and sections, avoid using the boundary=administrative tag. Something like boundary=survey would be more appropriate. -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
