[Talk-us] Fwd: [Tagging] Proposal for standardization of sidewalk schema (+ import)

[Martijn van Exel]

The discussion threads got disconnected between tagging and talk-us,
forwarding my response to talk-us.
Martijn van Exel
http://mvexel.github.io/

-- Forwarded message --
From: Martijn van Exel 
Date: Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Proposal for standardization of sidewalk schema (+
import)
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 


Frederik,

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/01/2016 11:35 PM, Meg Drouhard wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Our team is proposing a standardization of sidewalk tagging conventions
> > in OSM to simplify pedestrian network annotations and better represent
> > the physical reality of sidewalk ways.  This proposal is particularly
> > concerned with features of sidewalks that may aid or impede travel for
> > people with limited mobility.
> >
> > Our schema proposal is available
> > here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sidewalk_schema.
>
> As written on the imports list, I think that separate mapping of
> sidewalks will not, and should not, be the norm; they should be possible
> where it helps modelling a complex layout but you shouldn't rely on them.
>

I think that this is what we are here to discuss, and in light of that
using prescriptive wording ('shouldn't') is not helpful. It suggests that
you possess some kind of special authority deciding on tagging schemes that
you do not. Furthermore your tone suggests that people new to this
discussion or to OSM are to subject themselves to that perceived authority,
rather than welcoming them by using a tone of curiosity and willingness to
learn from people with an outside perspective. Altogether not helpful for
having an open discussion.


> In the past, we've had a number of projects aimed at helping older
> people or those with impaired vision or movement to navigate cities.
> These were often driven by some university or city department with
> limited funding and a limited run time, resulting in often shabby
> imports of footway-sidewalks ("the community will fix it, surely"), so
> that the university/department could quickly show off their prototype
> and then forget about everything and go on with their lives.
>
> This is not what brings OSM forward; these people have not kick-started
> anything but just hijacked OSM for a short-term goal.
>

Again you are being suggestive -- do you expect this initiative to fail
like similar ones preceding it? Why can we not draw positive lessons from
the past rather than expecting new initiatives to fail before they even get
started? Or am I misinterpreting you entirely here?


> Mapping sidewalks as individual geometries is the most
> data-consumer-friendly of all possible approaches; configure your
> renderer to use only footways and bam, it works.
>
> However, the result will be as system that works *only* where separate
> footways are tagged, and it is highly unlikely that this will happen on
> a global scale. A good pedestrian routing schema *must* cope with
> not-explicitly-mapped sidewalks.
>
> But mapping sidewalks as individual geometries puts considerable burden
> on the mappers who want to work with the data in an editor.
>

The tools have always evolved with the ever expanding tagging schemas. This
is just a red herring and I wish we would stop using it as an argument
against new things folks come up with to map.

>
> There's also the question of how to link a separately mapped sidewalk to
> the street it belongs to, so that proper routing instructions can be
> generated (instead of "follow unnamed footway for 500 metres"). And the
> question of how rendering should treat these sidewalks.
>
> Reading material for past research and discussions (some of this is
> German only or Germany-heavy I'm afraid) e.g.


> * https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-April/072613.html
> (Roland Olbricht on routing suggestions)
>
> * Nathanel Lang's bachelor thesis in which he synthesizes a routing
> graph with separate edges for left/right sidewalk even when none exist
> in OSM https://github.com/Nathanael-L/pedro
>
> * Long discussion on Austrian list
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-at/2014-February/006402.html
>
> * Micha Meier's work in Graz, Austria - Project "Access2Life"
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Species/Access2Life with
> detailed tagging schema and even specialized JOSM presets and styles
>
> I'm Cc'ing Roland and Micha explicitly because I don't know if they are
> on this list.
>

The fact that this is all pretty German language centered sums it all up.
The topic has perhaps been discussed over and over in your language, spoken
by ~ 1.4% of the world. That doesn't mean other communities will
necessarily come to the same conclusions, or that they may not have
valuable input that perhaps the German community could even learn from?

>
> There's also people discussing whether to start 

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Frederik Ramm]

Clifford,

On 08/02/2016 05:59 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
> We tell people not to map for the renderer. In the same spirit shouldn't
> we tell people not to let the limitations of the editor stop them from
> mapping?

Usually, when you deal with individual mappers who come up with a
tagging scheme, you can simply let them try it because they are just one
person and the amount of stuff they can survey in any given time is
limited. Before they can break a lot, others will notice what's going
on, and a discussion can develop.

Importing sidewalks for a large city is something different. It allows
you to add thousands of objects in a short time frame. Hence the request
to "talk before you import" - something we don't expect from the hobby
mapper who adds a few sidewalks according to a tagging schema he has
made up.

> I'm not following you. They did announce their plans and are discussing
> the proposal with the community, including how to route. 

I am concerned that they might want to start importing data 5 days from
now which is certainly not enough time for a solid discussion. Maybe I
misread.

> Unlike existing routing systems, they are proposing to enable people
> with limited mobility to find a route to their location.  

As I have said, there have been a number of publicly funded projects
that had this laudable aim. Solving the issue by adding ways for every
sidewalk is one of many potential solutions; a solution that has
advantages and drawbacks which should be discussed widely before an
import is done to "kick-start" world-wide adaption of a tagging schema.

> Yet their plan is the easiest for a new mapper to follow. I've followed
> mapping of sidewalks. Where are these proposals you talk about? 

I linked some in my post to the tagging list. Some of the
failed/single-minded projects in the past didn't even bother documenting
their tags on the wiki, insofar this project is superior - and it's
totally ok for them to start a discussion. Just not an import one week
after mentioning that by-the-way-we-have-a-proposal-here ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Clifford Snow]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>sidewalk tagging in OSM is a complex issue. The fact that sidewalks
> are not tagged as individual geometries is not purely a shortcoming,  it
> is a compromise that keeps OSM data editable. Having individual
> geometries for every single sidewalk on the planet will not only
> massively increase the data volume but also require new and better tools
> for editing, e.g. moving the geometry of a street without having to move
> three parallel lines manually and so on.
>

Frederik, I thought you were for only add objects that can be surveyed on
the ground? Isn't that what they are proposing?

We tell people not to map for the renderer. In the same spirit shouldn't we
tell people not to let the limitations of the editor stop them from mapping?


> There have been several local imports of sidewalk data that were removed
> again because lack of prior discussion and/or because they were
> single-purpose imports that did not care about integration with the rest
> of OSM (for example: what should rendering engines do with sidewalks;
> how do they integrate with normal footways; how is a sidewalk linked to
> the road along which it runs so that routing engines can say "follow
> sidewalk along XY road" instead of "follow unnamed footway"; how can
> routing and rendering use individual sidewalks and still gracefully fall
> back to another method where these are not defined, and so on).
>

I'm not following you. They did announce their plans and are discussing the
proposal with the community, including how to route.
Unlike existing routing systems, they are proposing to enable people with
limited mobility to find a route to their location.

>
> Several ideas have been proposed to get around mapping sidewalks as
> individual geometries, which is in many ways the most primitive way to
> tackle the problem and the one that puts the most work on the shoulders
> of our volunteers.
>

Yet their plan is the easiest for a new mapper to follow. I've followed
mapping of sidewalks. Where are these proposals you talk about?

Your wiki page states that you had "feedback from the global OSM
> community"; I'm surprised that these details seem to have escaped you
> until now. Which sidewalk mapping experiments in OSM have you studied,
> and what have you learned? Which global OSM community did you talk to
> and where?
>

Frederik - may I suggest you comment on their proposal in a more
constructive method. I was septical of their approach when I first learned
of their plans, yet as I learn more, I've come to accept that they have a
well thought out proposal. Certainly the community should help make sure
that their proposal doesn't have some unforeseen issue. As a walker, the
current OSM sidewalk tagging scheme is lacking and just a pain when with
complex intersections. And yes I have added the entire sidewalk, manually,
to my town.

Best,
Clifford

-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Martijn van Exel]

Bill,

To my mind the tools and infrastructure should be catering to the mappers'
needs and not the other way around, so whatever reasonable requirements
this tagging scheme may impose, the OSM platform should be able to absorb.
Not my use of the word 'reasonable' --> in the spirit of OSM any scheme
should be the simplest it can be while being able to represent the reality
it means to represent.

Martijn

Martijn van Exel
http://mvexel.github.io/

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:34 AM, Bill Ricker  wrote:

> As a mapper and map users whose household includes a wheelchair user, I
> applaud the idea of routable curb-cuts and crossings.
>
> What is the DB implication of urban ways trebling in ways, nodes is a
> discussion that needs to happen - is this a real or potential problem?   Is
> it easy to extract/filter for uses that don't require footpaths ?
> ​
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Bill Ricker]

As a mapper and map users whose household includes a wheelchair user, I
applaud the idea of routable curb-cuts and crossings.

What is the DB implication of urban ways trebling in ways, nodes is a
discussion that needs to happen - is this a real or potential problem?   Is
it easy to extract/filter for uses that don't require footpaths ?
​
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Martijn van Exel]

Meg,

I applaud more sidewalk data in OSM. I started adding them in SLC some time
ago. Then went through a phase where I thought they were redundant and that
we could cover every use case with the sidewalk=* tags on ways. Not so.

Let me know if MapRoulette can help here. We did a similar challenge with
NYC bike lanes before with some success.

Martijn

Martijn van Exel
Secretary, US Chapter
OpenStreetMap
http://openstreetmap.us/
http://osm.org/
skype: mvexel

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Meg Drouhard  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We are proposing to import open municipal sidewalk data from the city of
> Seattle as described in this proposal:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seattle,_Washington/Sidewalk_Import.
>
> Imports will be tagged according to the sidewalk schema that we propose
> here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sidewalk_schema.
> The schema is a proposal for standardization of conventions, rather than
> changing or adding tags, and it is particularly concerned with features of
> sidewalks that may aid or impede travel for people with limited mobility.
>
> We are still in the process of testing our deployment of the OSM Tasking
> Manager for this purpose, but we appreciate any feedback you may have
> either through our discussion pages or by email .
>
> Thanks,
>
> Meg Drouhard
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Bryan Housel]

Meg this is excellent!

Thank you for sharing your plans with `talk-us` and `talk-us-pugetsound`.  I’m 
looking forward to seeing this public data source imported into OpenStreetMap.  
Given that your team is located in Seattle and is very involved with the local 
community there, I don’t see any issues. 

I think it is great that you are following the same process used by the various 
building import projects in other cities, and that you are taking 
responsibility for manual review of the data prior to importing.

Also, I’ve reviewed the proposed sidewalk schema and it aligns perfectly with 
North American sidewalk tagging conventions.

Good luck and let me know if I can be helpful in any way..

Bryan




> On Aug 1, 2016, at 5:35 PM, Meg Drouhard  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We are proposing to import open municipal sidewalk data from the city of 
> Seattle as described in this proposal: 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seattle,_Washington/Sidewalk_Import 
> .
> 
> Imports will be tagged according to the sidewalk schema that we propose here: 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sidewalk_schema 
> .  The 
> schema is a proposal for standardization of conventions, rather than changing 
> or adding tags, and it is particularly concerned with features of sidewalks 
> that may aid or impede travel for people with limited mobility. 
> 
> We are still in the process of testing our deployment of the OSM Tasking 
> Manager for this purpose, but we appreciate any feedback you may have either 
> through our discussion pages or by email .
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Meg Drouhard
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Frederik Ramm]

Meg,

   sidewalk tagging in OSM is a complex issue. The fact that sidewalks
are not tagged as individual geometries is not purely a shortcoming,  it
is a compromise that keeps OSM data editable. Having individual
geometries for every single sidewalk on the planet will not only
massively increase the data volume but also require new and better tools
for editing, e.g. moving the geometry of a street without having to move
three parallel lines manually and so on.

There have been several local imports of sidewalk data that were removed
again because lack of prior discussion and/or because they were
single-purpose imports that did not care about integration with the rest
of OSM (for example: what should rendering engines do with sidewalks;
how do they integrate with normal footways; how is a sidewalk linked to
the road along which it runs so that routing engines can say "follow
sidewalk along XY road" instead of "follow unnamed footway"; how can
routing and rendering use individual sidewalks and still gracefully fall
back to another method where these are not defined, and so on).

People are experimenting with different ways of mapping sidewalks.
Under no circumstances should you perform an import that creates facts
before your proposal for separate mapping of sidewalks has been
discussed more widely.

Several ideas have been proposed to get around mapping sidewalks as
individual geometries, which is in many ways the most primitive way to
tackle the problem and the one that puts the most work on the shoulders
of our volunteers.

Your wiki page states that you had "feedback from the global OSM
community"; I'm surprised that these details seem to have escaped you
until now. Which sidewalk mapping experiments in OSM have you studied,
and what have you learned? Which global OSM community did you talk to
and where?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[Talk-us] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[Meg Drouhard]

Hello,

We are proposing to import open municipal sidewalk data from the city of
Seattle as described in this proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seattle,_Washington/Sidewalk_Import.

Imports will be tagged according to the sidewalk schema that we propose
here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sidewalk_schema.
The schema is a proposal for standardization of conventions, rather than
changing or adding tags, and it is particularly concerned with features of
sidewalks that may aid or impede travel for people with limited mobility.

We are still in the process of testing our deployment of the OSM Tasking
Manager for this purpose, but we appreciate any feedback you may have
either through our discussion pages or by email .

Thanks,

Meg Drouhard
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[Talk-us] Whole-US Garmin Map update - 2016-07-29

[Dave Hansen]

These are based off of Lambertus's work here:

http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

If you have questions or comments about these maps, please feel
free to ask.  However, please do not send me private mail.  The
odds are, someone else will have the same questions, and by
asking on the talk-us@ list, others can benefit.

Downloads:

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2016-07-29

Map to visualize what each file contains:


http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2016-07-29/kml/kml.html


FAQ



Why did you do this?

I wrote scripts to joined them myself to lessen the impact
of doing a large join on Lambertus's server.  I've also
cut them in large longitude swaths that should fit conveniently
on removable media.  

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2016-07-29

Can or should I seed the torrents?

Yes!!  If you use the .torrent files, please seed.  That web
server is in the UK, and it helps to have some peers on this
side of the Atlantic.

Why is my map missing small rectangular areas?

There have been some missing tiles from Lambertus's map (the
red rectangles),  I don't see any at the moment, so you may
want to update if you had issues with the last set.

Why can I not copy the large files to my new SD card?

If you buy a new card (especially SDHC), some are FAT16 from
the factory.  I had to reformat it to let me create a >2GB
file.

Does your map cover Mexico/Canada?

Yes!!  I have, for the purposes of this map, annexed Ontario
in to the USA.  Some areas of North America that are close
to the US also just happen to get pulled in to these maps.
This might not happen forever, and if you would like your
non-US area to get included, let me know. 

-- Dave


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