Re: [Talk-us] Mapping traffic signals and stop signs using MapRoulette

[Marc Gemis]

I don't understand your roundabouts example. The give way before the
roundabout can be mapped on the road entering the roundabout, not ?
What's different from another road with a give way sign ? That the
roundabout is a one-way road ? Perhaps the rules for give way signs
before roundabouts are different between the US and Europe ?

The other examples add additional requirements and were not really
what I asked for.
I think those situations even do not exist in Belgium, which does not
mean we should not be able to map them, just that we do not need a
complex tagging system for our give ways.

If we follow the KISS principle, we can still map all the give ways
where we do no have those additional requirements without using
relations and keep relations for those cases where a give way only
applies to certain transportation modes or to certain directions. You
could compare to to not mapping turn restrictions if we can map it
with a oneway-tag.

I think you will not be able to convince me that relations are a good
thing for simple cases and I will not be able to convince you of the
opposite. But since there is no proposal for a relation, I cannot use
it. So unless someone writes a proposal, relations will not be used.

regards

m.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> As I asked you before, show me a real world case where you have to map
>> a give way sign on the intersection of more than 1 OSM way. After
>> mapping several hundreds of them in Belgium, I have never seen a case
>> where it is needed.
>
>
> Roundabouts.  Intersections that are signalized but marked for a right turn
> yield for bicyclists.  4-way intersections with a two-way yield.

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[Talk-us] Whole-US Garmin Map update - 2017-06-10

[Dave Hansen]

These are based off of Lambertus's work here:

http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

If you have questions or comments about these maps, please feel
free to ask.  However, please do not send me private mail.  The
odds are, someone else will have the same questions, and by
asking on the talk-us@ list, others can benefit.

Downloads:

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2017-06-10

Map to visualize what each file contains:


http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2017-06-10/kml/kml.html


FAQ



Why did you do this?

I wrote scripts to joined them myself to lessen the impact
of doing a large join on Lambertus's server.  I've also
cut them in large longitude swaths that should fit conveniently
on removable media.  

http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/garmin/Lambertus/2017-06-10

Can or should I seed the torrents?

Yes!!  If you use the .torrent files, please seed.  That web
server is in the UK, and it helps to have some peers on this
side of the Atlantic.

Why is my map missing small rectangular areas?

There have been some missing tiles from Lambertus's map (the
red rectangles),  I don't see any at the moment, so you may
want to update if you had issues with the last set.

Why can I not copy the large files to my new SD card?

If you buy a new card (especially SDHC), some are FAT16 from
the factory.  I had to reformat it to let me create a >2GB
file.

Does your map cover Mexico/Canada?

Yes!!  I have, for the purposes of this map, annexed Ontario
in to the USA.  Some areas of North America that are close
to the US also just happen to get pulled in to these maps.
This might not happen forever, and if you would like your
non-US area to get included, let me know. 

-- Dave


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Re: [Talk-us] NJ mass road demotions?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>  I only saw this since NE2 had mass-upgraded everything in the US highway
> system to trunk nationwide.  Typically, trunk in the US has been meant to
> mean an expressway, ie, basically a freeway, but it might have intersections
> (the midwest is full of these, Tesla's first autopilot crash happened on
> such an expressway).  Or it might be fully controlled, but only a single
> carriageway (Cimarron Turnpike).  Or it's dual carriageway, but only one
> lane on a carriageway (thankfully, this is rare, the only one I remember
> driving on appears to be 2+2 now).  Odd beasts that are more controlled than
> a primary, yet, not a freeway.

Yeah, 'trunk' and 'unclassified' are odd beasts in the US because we
don't really have legal classifications corresponding to the ones of
those names in several European countries.

I pretty much follow the same practice as you. Trunks that I'm aware
of having travelled include Taconic Parkway (most of the crossings are
now elevated, but grade crossings do remain and are quite hazardous),
US 7 in Vermont (crossings elevated, but the carriageway is usually
two lanes plus a climbing lane), Queens Boulevard in New York City (an
urban surface street, but with four median-separated carriageways) and
any number of urban ways with dual carriageways and 'major' crossings
elevated, but at-grade minor intersections and even driveways opening
on the way.

'Unclassified,' I wind up using as something of a catchall for "isn't
primarily residential, and serves the hinterland rather than
connecting two places" If a way is the main route, say, between two
villages, that's at least 'tertiary'. How the road is placarded hardly
enters into the equation. There are placarded and numbered county
roads around here that deserve every designation from 'track' to
'trunk'. I think I could still find placards on some county roads that
have been de facto abandoned since the 1940s and are grown to trees -
but remain public rights-of-way that the hiking clubs encourage people
to use on foot.

Anything 'unclassified' and higher, I explicitly tag surface and
smoothness if either is significant. "highway=tertiary
surface=compacted smoothness=very_bad" is not uncommon out in the
countryside. I'm less assiduous with 'track', which can be presumed
to have a less-than-friendly surface to drive on.

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Re: [Talk-us] NJ mass road demotions?

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Richard Fairhurst 
wrote:

> Kevin Kenny wrote:
> > Is there *anyone* that actually can speak to what *is* common
> > practice in the US? When I've asked, I've always drawn a lot of
> > replies and come away more confused than before.
>
> I've been doing vast amounts of rural TIGER fixup over the past couple of
> years and this is what broadly seems to be what I've seen, bearing in mind
> standard practice in other developed countries and the idea that the
> highway= tag combines the importance in the highway network with some
> assurance of construction quality:
>
> * highway=motorway: interstate or other long-distance restricted-access
> road
> * highway=trunk: fast, busy State Highway or US Highway, often NHS/STRAHNET


 I only saw this since NE2 had mass-upgraded everything in the US highway
system to trunk nationwide.  Typically, trunk in the US has been meant to
mean an expressway, ie, basically a freeway, but it might have
intersections (the midwest is full of these, Tesla's first autopilot crash
happened on such an expressway).  Or it might be fully controlled, but only
a single carriageway (Cimarron Turnpike).  Or it's dual carriageway, but
only one lane on a carriageway (thankfully, this is rare, the only one I
remember driving on appears to be 2+2 now).  Odd beasts that are more
controlled than a primary, yet, not a freeway.
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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping traffic signals and stop signs using MapRoulette

[Marc Gemis]

As I asked you before, show me a real world case where you have to map
a give way sign on the intersection of more than 1 OSM way. After
mapping several hundreds of them in Belgium, I have never seen a case
where it is needed.

But I'm willing to map relations as well, but then someone has to make
that proposal, move it forward, make sure the tools get updated etc.

m.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:00 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Paul Johnson 
>> wrote:
>> > How does it not?  A node doesn't infer a way that it's attached to,
>> > though a
>> > node may infer what nodes it crosses through.  This is why relations
>> > became
>> > a thing, to model things that can't be inferred from the other two
>> > primitive
>> > types, particularly for enforcement and turn restrictions.
>>
>> Are you saying that when I (or the software) traverse a way in forward
>> direction  and it encounters a node that has a give way  tag on it,
>> that it cannot read the direction tag on the node as well and then
>> decided whether it has to apply the give way or not ?
>
>
> In cases more complex than a simple one-way-in, one-way-out scenario on a
> one-way road, not with any real consistent accuracy, no.

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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping traffic signals and stop signs using MapRoulette

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:00 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Paul Johnson 
> wrote:
> > How does it not?  A node doesn't infer a way that it's attached to,
> though a
> > node may infer what nodes it crosses through.  This is why relations
> became
> > a thing, to model things that can't be inferred from the other two
> primitive
> > types, particularly for enforcement and turn restrictions.
>
> Are you saying that when I (or the software) traverse a way in forward
> direction  and it encounters a node that has a give way  tag on it,
> that it cannot read the direction tag on the node as well and then
> decided whether it has to apply the give way or not ?
>

In cases more complex than a simple one-way-in, one-way-out scenario on a
one-way road, not with any real consistent accuracy, no.
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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping traffic signals and stop signs using MapRoulette

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> How does it not?  A node doesn't infer a way that it's attached to, though a
> node may infer what nodes it crosses through.  This is why relations became
> a thing, to model things that can't be inferred from the other two primitive
> types, particularly for enforcement and turn restrictions.

Are you saying that when I (or the software) traverse a way in forward
direction  and it encounters a node that has a give way  tag on it,
that it cannot read the direction tag on the node as well and then
decided whether it has to apply the give way or not ?

m.

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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping traffic signals and stop signs using MapRoulette

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Paul Johnson 
> wrote:
>
>> So we're ignoring that nodes don't inherit the directionality of the
>> underlying way?  Really sounds like you're trying to suggest using
>> direction=forward/backwards when a relation is what's actually needed.
>>
>
> There are already tens of thousands of STOP signs tagged with direction=*.
> The semantics don't imply that a node has a direction.
>

How does it not?  A node doesn't infer a way that it's attached to, though
a node may infer what nodes it crosses through.  This is why relations
became a thing, to model things that can't be inferred from the other two
primitive types, particularly for enforcement and turn restrictions.


> Have you even posted a proposal for the relation-based schema that you're
> advocating? You sent a link when we had this discussion before, but the
> link went to a page about traffic cameras that had no mention of STOP or
> GIVE WAY signs at all.
>

 I seem to recall there was an offer to put together the write-up out there
since my mediawiki-fu is rather awful.  If someone would like to help on
that, that'd be awesome.
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