Re: [Talk-us] Pittsburgh neighborhood boundaries mapped with admin_level 9?

[Minh Nguyen]

On 25/08/2017 12:18, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

The point of admin_level is that each member in the hierarchy is a distinct "government" offering 
specific government services by the consent of the governed.  (By several-years-ago OSM consensus, 
special-purpose districts like parks, schools, COGs or MPOs don't get tagged with admin_level).  I very much 
like the way Minh Nguyen describes "Municipal Subdivisions" (below Municipalities or cities/towns) 
in WikiProject_United States/Boundaries:  "Where these subdivisions serve as a system of general-purpose 
units of government with well-defined boundaries, they are tagged boundary=administrative 
admin_level=10."  SOME cities (we agree, and virtually all of them relatively large) truly do have two 
such levels, such as New Orleans which has wards AND neighborhoods, both well-established.  Good we have 9!

In short, larger cities MIGHT have truly administrative neighborhoods, which it 
is emerging in the USA should be tagged admin_level=10.  For cities with two 
administrative subdivisions below cities (like New Orleans), we have and should 
tag both 9 and 10, obviously the lower/lowest gets 10.  In smaller cities, 
especially suburbs, consider mapping (sometimes homeowner association–managed) 
residential subdivisions with landuse=residential ways (often closed polygons), 
omitting admin_level altogether.  Admin_level tagging (especially below 8) 
continues to become better-defined in the USA, and I am pleased to see us 
continue to discuss it well right here.


I'd like to remind the list that the "well-established" New Orleans 
neighborhoods that Steve refers to conflates two concepts. Indeed, New 
Orleans does have well-established neighborhood names, many with 
boundaries defined well enough for inclusion in OSM. There's also a set 
of neighborhood boundaries used for planning purposes by the City 
Planning Commission. [1] The latter are inspired by the traditional 
neighborhoods and boundaries, in exactly the same way that 
census-designated places are inspired by traditional neighborhoods.


Just a couple examples from my own experience:

I was born in what the planning commission apparently calls "Read 
Boulevard East". You would be hard-pressed to find any such designation 
on the ground, and a local will give you a weird look if you refer to 
it. I suppose some New Orleanians do refer to "the Read Boulevard area", 
just as you would refer to the area around any major thoroughfare. But 
in common usage, there aren't precise boundaries for that area and no 
one divides it between east and west.


What you will find on the ground in that area are prominent neighborhood 
entrance signs in the neutral ground of major arterial streets. (These 
signs are posted all over Greater New Orleans, including on the Westbank.)


Eastover: https://goo.gl/maps/pAYqEVc2qn62
Fauberg: https://goo.gl/maps/2XPwuyXXbmy
Idlewood: https://goo.gl/maps/ZfwaroyHDmt
Lake Bullard: https://goo.gl/maps/nM6kHoBZ8tB2
Lake Forest Estates: https://goo.gl/maps/1gafzH6k3TP2
McKendall Estates: https://goo.gl/maps/HmENbSJWxZF2

I've mapped some of these residential neighborhoods as 
landuse=residential areas. When it comes to the less historic parts of 
New Orleans, at least, I think that approach is far more appropriate 
than mapping administrative boundaries based on the planning 
commission's neighborhood boundaries.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhoods_in_New_Orleans


SteveA
California
(a big fan of "let's get admin_level as correct as we can in the USA")



From: Peter Dobratz 
To: Albert Pundt 
Cc: "talk-us@openstreetmap.org" 
Sent: Thursday, 27 July 2017, 18:29
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Pittsburgh neighborhood boundaries mapped with admin 
level 9?

(Appologies as I was in the middle of writing my reply when inadvertantly 
hitting send.  Here's the whole message)

Boundaries below admin_level=8 are still being discussed.  There was some 
discussion on this list as well as the OSM wiki

https://wiki.openstreetmap. org/wiki/Talk:United_States_ 
admin_level#Nine_state_ improvement

Having lived in Pittsburgh, I remember that the neighborhood boundaries are 
well defined and many of the street signs have the neighborhood names printed 
across the top of them (epecially on more major roads with bigger signs).

If you were to divide up Pittsburgh into smaller administrative units, how 
would you do it?

Pittsburgh resides within Allegheny County.  Allegheny County is divided into 
Wards and districts, some of which could be used to divide up Pittsburgh:
http://apps.alleghenycounty.us/website/MuniPgh.asp

Pittsburgh city council is made up of 9 people who each represent a council 
district of the city.  It looks like each council district covers a group of 
neighborhoods (that might lend itself to making the council districts 
admin_level=9 and the neighborhoods admin_level=10).  For example, council 

Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Minh Nguyen]

On 27/08/2017 06:49, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Here's a list of way IDs affected, with country and state:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/chdr.details


In case it helps, I dumped this CSV into a spreadsheet and sorted it by 
country and region:




This spreadsheet is currently open for anyone to edit or comment on.

I was primarily interested in two U.S. states, so I dumped the way IDs 
for those states into an Overpass query to get an idea of which part of 
the state would be most affected. The resulting query has a URL too long 
to share, but here's a template you can follow:




Here's how you'd narrow down the results to a particular county:



Some other tips that may be helpful for anyone trying to hand-verify 
these ways:


* Level0 has a box where you can enter a list of way IDs and get their 
tags: 

* Similarly, in iD, type w1234 into the search bar to jump to way 1234.



I hand-reviewed the 63 affected ways in Ohio and 37 in Indiana. Each of 
chdr's edits can easily be explained as one or more of:


1. Expanding preexisting, TIGER-imported abbreviations in name
2. Copying preexisting, TIGER-imported name_1 or name_2 tags to name
3. Copying name tags from nearby streets whose names were imported from 
TIGER


Virtually all the instances of #1 could be filtered out by running the 
preexisting name through the TIGER expansion bot code.


None of the occurrences of #2 matches Google Maps.

Of the occurrences of #3, only one way matches Google Maps. I think that 
was a coincidence, but in any case, both chdr's edit and Google Maps 
were wrong, so I corrected the name.


See the spreadsheet for details on each way in these two states, and 
feel free to perform a similar review for other areas.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER fixup for Hurricane Harvey potential impact areas

[Brian May]

There is now a task in the OSM Task Manager to help coordinate the 
effort at http://tasks.openstreetmap.us/project/104


There is also a WMS layer of Texas statewide streets available at 
http://maps.mapwise.com/cgi-bin/mapserv?map=maps/fmo-base-osm-texas.map; 
- use that URL in JOSM.


Adding WMS layer to JOSM tutorial here: 
http://learnosm.org/en/josm/josm-adding-imagery/


The streets are from: https://tnris.org/data-catalog/entry/txdot-roadways/

Brian

On 8/25/2017 10:02 PM, Hans De Kryger wrote:

Thanks for letting me know, i'm on it!

*Regards,**
*
*Hans*

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Brian May > wrote:


Calling all TIGER fixup junkies. I've been poking around the
coastal areas of Texas where Hurricane Harvey is expected to make
landfall and seeing a lot of TIGER fixup needed. More and more
websites depend on OSM so it would be nice to provide more
accurate and updated info than what is there now. Maps and GIS are
going to be heavily relied on especially after the storm.

Common issues:

- Streets that aren't there

- Tracks marked as residential. Many tracks are barely visible or
edges of farms and should be deleted.

- Driveways marked as residential streets (should be service).

- Streets needing realignment.

- Streets not connecting properly.


An interesting site using OSM is https://livestormchasing.com/map


Storm chaser locations are shown on OSM in real time and there are
video feeds from some of them. So that means you can get real time
video of what the ground looks like! Lots of flooding already
happening along the coast.

Brian aka grouper



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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

> I don't understand what people mean with 'verifying' objects. We're
> not trying to find factually-incorrect data. The data is legally
> tainted. It's questionable whether looking at the current names
> imported from GMaps, comparing to another source, seeing they match
> and marking them as "verified" will legally change anything.



> And it's
> impossible to know if people are really verifying anything or just
> blindly marking them as verified.
>
>
Nicolás is there any chance you can refrain from slimming the community
like that?



> I think the only clean way to solve this is to redact and then re-map
> from legal sources.
>

If you are in another country than the US and Canada, then you may not have
a second legal source and you would make this statement.  In my case, I
have had a series of tiger name layers work from over the years..  So what
Fredrick wants to do based on his list is to wipe out my work with his
purposed blind revert.  As an example, here is way
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103141172 .  I cleaned up the geometry
two years ago.  I added access tags and what not.  I make it a habit of
removing all tiger tags when I am finished cleaning up and verifying names
with the tiger layer.  Way 103141172 is on Fredrick's list.  If he performs
is revert, then I am going to have to go back and add the name back that I
have already checked on.  Hence, I do not agree with either of your
statements.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Mikel Maron]

> we can find a good workflow for that. I wasn't expecting the community to 
>start working on this pre-redaction but if people prefer that to fixing issues 
>later...
Absolutely, let's do this!
Also, Frederik, I think your script picked up false positives. Spot checked in 
DC, and these are expansions of both the street and the quadrant ("St NW" -> 
"Street Northwest"(. Can we fix the script and regen the list?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109419946/historyhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109431926/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109431927/history

-Mikel
 * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:45 PM, Greg Morgan  
wrote:
 

 

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel  
wrote:

Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a 
proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create the 
challenge but I'd be happy to do it.Martijn

Martijn,
I'd would be great if you can break this down to an area.  For example, I have 
a list of Arizona streets.  I'd prefer to work on this as an Arizona challenge 
verses one big chdr challenge.
Please Advise,Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a
> proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create
> the challenge but I'd be happy to do it.
>
> Martijn
>

Martijn,

I'd would be great if you can break this down to an area.  For example, I
have a list of Arizona streets.  I'd prefer to work on this as an Arizona
challenge verses one big chdr challenge.

Please Advise,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Tod Fitch]

Okay, slogged though the rest of the list Steve had. Nearly all match the TIGER 
2015 data so should be good. Here is what I checked:

TIGER 2015   5949993,"California","United States of America" Tulagi 
Road, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5957171,"California","United States of America" South 
M Avenue, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5959592,"California","United States of America" East B 
Road, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5959593,"California","United States of America" East B 
Road, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5960070,"California","United States of America" East F 
Road, San Diego
   5963118,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
Court East, San Diego -- TIGER 2015 has it as Kingston East Court
   5963190,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
Court South, San Diego -- TIGER 2015 has it as Kingston South Court
   5963214,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
Court West, San Diego -- TIGER 2015 has it as Kingston West Court
TIGER 2015   5963786,"California","United States of America" East I 
Road, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5964547,"California","United States of America" South 
R Avenue, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5965288,"California","United States of America" McCain 
Boulevard, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5965292,"California","United States of America" McCain 
Boulevard, San Diego
TIGER 2015 xx  5969001,"California","United States of America" 4th 
Sttreet -- fixed to "4th Street but" not confirmed -- TIGER 2015 has it as 4th 
Street
TIGER 2015   5969167,"California","United States of America" North 
4th Street, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5970892,"California","United States of America" McCain 
West Boulevard, San Diego
TIGER 2015   5994791,"California","United States of America" East G 
Road, San Diego
   533,"California","United States of America" East H Road, 
San Diego -- TIGER 2015 has it as "H E Road"
TIGER 2015   6006131,"California","United States of America" East J 
Road, North Island Coronado
Fixed   6012862,"California","United States of America" Hangar 
Road, North Island Coronado -- fixed to "Hanger Road" per TIGER 2015
TIGER 2015   6014150,"California","United States of America" South 
O Street, North Island Coronado
TIGER 2015   6017745,"California","United States of America" 
Avenida de las Arenas, San Diego
TIGER 2015   6020277,"California","United States of America" South 
Cays CourtSan Diego
TIGER 2015   6020279,"California","United States of America" South 
Cays CourtSan Diego
TIGER 2015   6026197,"California","United States of America" North 
Caribe Cay Boulevard  San Diego
TIGER 2015   6049589,"California","United States of America" 
O'Keefe Street  San Diego

   13337365,"California","United States of America"55th Place  
/ Los Angeles - TIGER 2015 has 55th Place for part and Balboa Place for the rest

   33407712,"California","United States of America"Via Azul, San 
Diego

TIGER 2015   100741105,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Azul, San Diego
TIGER 2015   108246340,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Inez, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741458,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Arezzo, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741459,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Arezzo, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741464,"California","United States of America"   Camino 
de la Rosa, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741465,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Fiesta, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741466,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Vivaldi, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741467,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Landini, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741468,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Bellini, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741469,"California","United States of America"   Via 
Bellini, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741699,"California","United States of America"   Camino 
de la Luna, San Diego
   122741702,"California","United States of America"   Delfina 
Drive, San Diego - TIGER 2015 has it as "Delfina" with no "drive", "road", etc.
TIGER 2015   122741703,"California","United States of America"   
Caminito Lazanja, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741969,"California","United States of America"   
Lazanja Pass, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741970,"California","United States of America"   
Caminito Santaluz Sur, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741971,"California","United States of America"   
Caminito Santaluz Sur, San Diego
TIGER 2015   122741974,"California","United States of America"   
Caminito Santaluz Sur, San Diego
TIGER 2015   

Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Clifford Snow]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>
> Here's a list of way IDs affected, with country and state:
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/chdr.details
>
>
Frederik,
I looked a small sample of the list. For example, way 10012342 [1] in Texas
was only touched by chdr. The name originated with the TIGER import by Dave
Hansen. It doesn't appear to me that at this point a mass deletion, at
least in the US, is appropriate.

As Ian pointed out, using a tool like Maproulette to validate names would
be a more appropriate recourse to insure we chdr did not add copyright
information to OSM. Especially four years later. I believe the US community
can manage to review 18,000 names to insure integrity of our project.

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/10012342/history

Best,
Clifford
-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Martijn van Exel]

Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a
proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create
the challenge but I'd be happy to do it.

Martijn

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017, 11:40 Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Steve:
>
> thank you for your work. I'll save your list. It appears that others
> might be eager to do the same, maybe we can find a good workflow for
> that. I wasn't expecting the community to start working on this
> pre-redaction but if people prefer that to fixing issues later, it is of
> course an option. I certainly prefer out-of-band "marking" of verified
> objects to adding a new tag to each!
>
> Tod:
>
> On 08/27/2017 07:31 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> > When you reviewed Orange County, how did you do it so quickly? The only
> way I know to go through this is looking at each one, one at a time.
>
> I could of course make a page with links to the ways, even per county if
> that helps, or we could upload the list to some suitable tool. Ian
> mentioned MapRoulette but I'm not sure if that would make things easier.
> I'm certainly happy to try. Maybe Martijn would like to chip in about
> MapRoulette?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Steve Friedl]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:31:14AM -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> There was a (poorly) done import of house numbers done in San Diego county a 
> long while back. Data from that import usually has a source tag of "SanGIS 
> Addresses Public Domain (http://www.sangis.org/)???. I think a reasonable 
> check for some of the questionable street names in that area could be done by 
> verifying that at least some of the addr:steet tags along the way match with 
> the name tag.
> 
> Unfortunately, I attempted a clean up of that import[1] a while ago so my 
> edits may have muddied the water. On the other hand, in areas where there 
> were objects with address information I did review the street name and 
> addr:street against the most recent TIGER imagery available in JOSM at the 
> time. So there is a good chance that I reviewed many of the street names 
> against TIGER data.
> 
> When you reviewed Orange County, how did you do it so quickly? The only way I 
> know to go through this is looking at each one, one at a time.

One. At. A. Time.

Using JOSM, I downloaded each object ID and inspected it, comparing with the
OC Landbase, the open parcel data hosted in GIS cloud. Virtually all were
correct in OSM.

Curiously, the "official" OC Landbase had some mistakes, which I confirmed
with (non-open) OC Assessor data and sent off corrections to OC Public
Works, with whom I have a great relationship.

Steve


> 
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/n76/diary/38088
> 
> > On Aug 27, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
> > 
> > What a bummer.
> > 
> > I went through all the ways in California, and half of them were in Orange 
> > County where I live, so I was able to confirm / fix them via public sources 
> > - two changelists reflect the confirmation and various fixes I made while I 
> > was in the area.
> > 
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51485799
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51486963
> > 
> > The rest are all but one in San Diego (one is in Los Angeles); those marked 
> > OK in the first column can be removed from the revert list; if anybody else 
> > has good data for San Diego, then perhaps we can deal with the rest of 
> > California, which is (sadly) only a small part of the area of concern.
> > 
> >5949993,"California","United States of America" Tulagi Road, 
> > San Diego
> >5957171,"California","United States of America" South M 
> > Avenue, San Diego
> >5959592,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
> > San Diego
> >5959593,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
> > San Diego
> >5960070,"California","United States of America" East F Road, 
> > San Diego
> >5963118,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
> > Court East, San Diego
> >5963190,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
> > Court South, San Diego
> >5963214,"California","United States of America" Kingston 
> > Court West, San Diego
> >5963786,"California","United States of America" East I Road, 
> > San Diego
> >5964547,"California","United States of America" South R 
> > Avenue, San Diego
> >5965288,"California","United States of America" McCain 
> > Boulevard, San Diego
> >5965292,"California","United States of America" McCain 
> > Boulevard, San Diego
> > xx  5969001,"California","United States of America" 4th Sttreet 
> > -- fixed to "4th Street but" not confirmed
> >5969167,"California","United States of America" North 4th 
> > Street, San Diego
> >5970892,"California","United States of America" McCain West 
> > Boulevard, San Diego
> >5994791,"California","United States of America" East G Road, 
> > San Diego
> >533,"California","United States of America" East H Road, 
> > San Diego
> >6006131,"California","United States of America" East J Road, 
> > North Island Coronado
> >6012862,"California","United States of America" Hangar Road, 
> > North Island Coronado
> >6014150,"California","United States of America" South O 
> > Street, North Island Coronado
> >6017745,"California","United States of America" Avenida de 
> > las Arenas, San Diego
> >6020277,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
> > CourtSan Diego
> >6020279,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
> > CourtSan Diego
> >6026197,"California","United States of America" North Caribe 
> > Cay Boulevard  San Diego
> >6049589,"California","United States of America" O'Keefe 
> > Street  San Diego
> > 
> >13337365,"California","United States of America"55th Place  
> > / Los Angeles
> >
> > 

Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Frederik Ramm]

Steve:

thank you for your work. I'll save your list. It appears that others
might be eager to do the same, maybe we can find a good workflow for
that. I wasn't expecting the community to start working on this
pre-redaction but if people prefer that to fixing issues later, it is of
course an option. I certainly prefer out-of-band "marking" of verified
objects to adding a new tag to each!

Tod:

On 08/27/2017 07:31 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
> When you reviewed Orange County, how did you do it so quickly? The only way I 
> know to go through this is looking at each one, one at a time.

I could of course make a page with links to the ways, even per county if
that helps, or we could upload the list to some suitable tool. Ian
mentioned MapRoulette but I'm not sure if that would make things easier.
I'm certainly happy to try. Maybe Martijn would like to chip in about
MapRoulette?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Tod Fitch]

There was a (poorly) done import of house numbers done in San Diego county a 
long while back. Data from that import usually has a source tag of "SanGIS 
Addresses Public Domain (http://www.sangis.org/)”. I think a reasonable check 
for some of the questionable street names in that area could be done by 
verifying that at least some of the addr:steet tags along the way match with 
the name tag.

Unfortunately, I attempted a clean up of that import[1] a while ago so my edits 
may have muddied the water. On the other hand, in areas where there were 
objects with address information I did review the street name and addr:street 
against the most recent TIGER imagery available in JOSM at the time. So there 
is a good chance that I reviewed many of the street names against TIGER data.

When you reviewed Orange County, how did you do it so quickly? The only way I 
know to go through this is looking at each one, one at a time.

Tod
n76 on OSM

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/n76/diary/38088

> On Aug 27, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
> 
> What a bummer.
> 
> I went through all the ways in California, and half of them were in Orange 
> County where I live, so I was able to confirm / fix them via public sources - 
> two changelists reflect the confirmation and various fixes I made while I was 
> in the area.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51485799
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51486963
> 
> The rest are all but one in San Diego (one is in Los Angeles); those marked 
> OK in the first column can be removed from the revert list; if anybody else 
> has good data for San Diego, then perhaps we can deal with the rest of 
> California, which is (sadly) only a small part of the area of concern.
> 
>5949993,"California","United States of America" Tulagi Road, 
> San Diego
>5957171,"California","United States of America" South M 
> Avenue, San Diego
>5959592,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
> San Diego
>5959593,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
> San Diego
>5960070,"California","United States of America" East F Road, 
> San Diego
>5963118,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
> East, San Diego
>5963190,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
> South, San Diego
>5963214,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
> West, San Diego
>5963786,"California","United States of America" East I Road, 
> San Diego
>5964547,"California","United States of America" South R 
> Avenue, San Diego
>5965288,"California","United States of America" McCain 
> Boulevard, San Diego
>5965292,"California","United States of America" McCain 
> Boulevard, San Diego
> xx  5969001,"California","United States of America" 4th Sttreet 
> -- fixed to "4th Street but" not confirmed
>5969167,"California","United States of America" North 4th 
> Street, San Diego
>5970892,"California","United States of America" McCain West 
> Boulevard, San Diego
>5994791,"California","United States of America" East G Road, 
> San Diego
>533,"California","United States of America" East H Road, 
> San Diego
>6006131,"California","United States of America" East J Road, 
> North Island Coronado
>6012862,"California","United States of America" Hangar Road, 
> North Island Coronado
>6014150,"California","United States of America" South O 
> Street, North Island Coronado
>6017745,"California","United States of America" Avenida de las 
> Arenas, San Diego
>6020277,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
> CourtSan Diego
>6020279,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
> CourtSan Diego
>6026197,"California","United States of America" North Caribe 
> Cay Boulevard  San Diego
>6049589,"California","United States of America" O'Keefe Street 
>  San Diego
> 
>13337365,"California","United States of America"55th Place  / 
> Los Angeles
>
> #--
># all these in Coto de Caza, Orange County California and 
> confirmed/fixed
> OK  13340935,"California","United States of America"Kingfisher 
> Court
> OK  13345902,"California","United States of America"Bentley Road
> OK  31793666,"California","United States of America"Bordeaux / 
> Coto
> OK  31793683,"California","United States of America"Endicott / 
> Coto
> OK  31793688,"California","United States of America"Taiga / Coto
> OK  31793691,"California","United States of America"   

Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi Ian,

On 08/27/2017 06:23 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
> Thanks for notifying us about this. I hope that you treat this as an
> import or automated edit and follow the rules you would expect to see
> the rest of the community follow.

Sorry for not being clear about this. I posted this with my DWG hat on,
and this is not an import or an automated edit but an "official" removal
of incompatible data which would be an everyday thing for DWG if it
weren't for the sheer number of contributions and the fact that they are
so old, hence the discussion ahead.

> Please post samples of your changes,

The change will be removing the name tag on all ways in the file I made
available, or reverting to whatever it was before chdr edited the
object. Other properties would not be edited.

If this was not a misunderstanding, and instead you wanted to use the
opportunity to start a discussion about DWG accountability ("every
revert of an automated edit is also an automated edit and hence needs to
be discussed in advance", etc.) then I would kindly ask you to do that
in separate thread with a suitable topic.

> and thanks for working to get buy-in
> from local community.

Let's call it a heads-up for, rather than a buy-in from, because even if
the local community were against it, I don't see a legally clean way
around removing these names.

> Is your plan to revert changes to the name tag made by chdr or will you
> be completely removing the name tag? Personally, I would prefer to see
> the name tag completely removed so we can more easily come back and
> correct it. It might also be better to load this list you posted into
> maproulette or similar so we can systematically validate the name values
> on the ways.

Streets that would end up not having a name will probably show up in
enough QA tools already, no?

I'll do a count of how many names would revert and how many would be
removed altogether. Maybe it is indeed best to simply ditch them all.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Steve Friedl]

What a bummer.

I went through all the ways in California, and half of them were in Orange 
County where I live, so I was able to confirm / fix them via public sources - 
two changelists reflect the confirmation and various fixes I made while I was 
in the area.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51485799
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/51486963

The rest are all but one in San Diego (one is in Los Angeles); those marked OK 
in the first column can be removed from the revert list; if anybody else has 
good data for San Diego, then perhaps we can deal with the rest of California, 
which is (sadly) only a small part of the area of concern.

5949993,"California","United States of America" Tulagi Road, 
San Diego
5957171,"California","United States of America" South M Avenue, 
San Diego
5959592,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
San Diego
5959593,"California","United States of America" East B Road, 
San Diego
5960070,"California","United States of America" East F Road, 
San Diego
5963118,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
East, San Diego
5963190,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
South, San Diego
5963214,"California","United States of America" Kingston Court 
West, San Diego
5963786,"California","United States of America" East I Road, 
San Diego
5964547,"California","United States of America" South R Avenue, 
San Diego
5965288,"California","United States of America" McCain 
Boulevard, San Diego
5965292,"California","United States of America" McCain 
Boulevard, San Diego
xx  5969001,"California","United States of America" 4th Sttreet -- 
fixed to "4th Street but" not confirmed
5969167,"California","United States of America" North 4th 
Street, San Diego
5970892,"California","United States of America" McCain West 
Boulevard, San Diego
5994791,"California","United States of America" East G Road, 
San Diego
533,"California","United States of America" East H Road, 
San Diego
6006131,"California","United States of America" East J Road, 
North Island Coronado
6012862,"California","United States of America" Hangar Road, 
North Island Coronado
6014150,"California","United States of America" South O Street, 
North Island Coronado
6017745,"California","United States of America" Avenida de las 
Arenas, San Diego
6020277,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
CourtSan Diego
6020279,"California","United States of America" South Cays 
CourtSan Diego
6026197,"California","United States of America" North Caribe 
Cay Boulevard  San Diego
6049589,"California","United States of America" O'Keefe Street  
San Diego

13337365,"California","United States of America"55th Place  / 
Los Angeles

#--
# all these in Coto de Caza, Orange County California and 
confirmed/fixed
OK  13340935,"California","United States of America"Kingfisher Court
OK  13345902,"California","United States of America"Bentley Road
OK  31793666,"California","United States of America"Bordeaux / Coto
OK  31793683,"California","United States of America"Endicott / Coto
OK  31793688,"California","United States of America"Taiga / Coto
OK  31793691,"California","United States of America"Weather Ledge 
(was Weatherledge) fixed
OK  31793693,"California","United States of America"Tucson / Coto
OK  31793694,"California","United States of America"Lone Wolf
OK  31793706,"California","United States of America"Loam
OK  31793713,"California","United States of America"Shale
OK  31793722,"California","United States of America"Vela Court
OK  31793742,"California","United States of America"Wandering River
OK  31793744,"California","United States of America"Hickory Fork
OK  31793748,"California","United States of America"Sky Meadow  
(was plural) fixed
OK  31793754,"California","United States of America"Fair Valley 
(location was wrong) fixed
OK  31793759,"California","United States of America"Bent Oak
OK  31793760,"California","United States of America"Slate Springs
OK  31793763,"California","United States of America"Black Walnut
OK  31793765,"California","United States of America"Knotty Oak 
Circle
OK  31793766,"California","United States of America"Tortoise Shell
OK  31793777,"California","United States of America" 

Re: [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Ian Dees]

Frederik,

Thanks for notifying us about this. I hope that you treat this as an import
or automated edit and follow the rules you would expect to see the rest of
the community follow. Please post samples of your changes, make a wiki page
for posterity, and thanks for working to get buy-in from local community.

Is your plan to revert changes to the name tag made by chdr or will you be
completely removing the name tag? Personally, I would prefer to see the
name tag completely removed so we can more easily come back and correct it.
It might also be better to load this list you posted into maproulette or
similar so we can systematically validate the name values on the ways.

-Ian

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>in 2010 I was privately contacted by another OSM user with the
> suspicion that user "chdr" might be copying names from Google maps
> (there were few "easter eggs" in Oman that were only on Google and not
> in the real world, and they suddenly popped up on OSM). "chdr" was
> contacted at the time, but continued unfazed. In 2013 another mapper
> lodged a complaint with DWG about edits by chdr, and I emailed chdr
> asking him about his sources. At that point chdr stopped mapping. He
> never replied about his sources though, even when I set an ultimatum (of
> 31st August 2013) threatening to remove all names he contributed if he
> can't tell us his source. We do have to assume that all names
> contributed by chdr are copyright violations.
>
> (chdr has added names all around the world, making a harmless survey
> unlikely.)
>
> For various reasons I neglected to act on this, and was only reminded
> now, 5 years later, when DWG received a complaint from a user in Brazil
> where chdr has even used "source=google" occasionally. (But as I said,
> the suspicion is that Google was used throughout.)
>
> I have now compiled a list of all street names that were contributed by
> chdr and are still visible today; we're talking about almost 75,000
> street names world wide. The most affected countries are:
>
>   18023 "United States of America"
>   16345 "Mexico"
>   15109 "Brazil"
>6791 "RSA"
>2802 "Spain"
>2614 "Australia"
>1923 "Argentina"
>1673 "Nigeria"
>1569 "India"
>1441 "Canada"
> 954 "Malaysia"
> 744 "Botswana"
> 717 "Philippines"
> 619 "Indonesia"
> 553 "Italy"
> 414 "Turkey"
> 290 "Hungary"
> 284 "Chile"
> 250 "Kenya"
> 127 "Saudi Arabia"
> 107 "Paraguay"
> 106 "Panama"
> 100 "Morocco"
>
> I've left out those countries with less than 100 affected ways.
>
> For the US, I can break it down by state:
>
>5696 "Arizona"
>5116 "Texas"
>2294 "New York"
>1164 "District of Columbia"
> 740 "Iowa"
> 494 "Colorado"
> 416 "New Jersey"
> 339 "Illinois"
> 268 "Michigan"
> 239 "Pennsylvania"
> 181 "Missouri"
> 147 "Georgia"
> 129 "New Mexico"
> 123 "North Carolina"
> 115 "California"
> 106 "Virginia"
>
> The breakdown for Mexico:
>
>7749 "Baja California"
>2084 "Puebla"
>1964 "Chihuahua"
>1539 "Coahuila"
>1161 "Mexico"
>1040 "Chiapas"
> 342 "Tamaulipas"
> 241 "Sonora"
> 185 "San Luis Potosi"
> 129 "New Mexico"
>
> and Brazil:
>
>   10904 "São Paulo"
>2605 "Paraná"
> 945 "Rio de Janeiro"
> 270 "Rio Grande do Sul"
> 154 "Goiás"
>
> and South Africa:
>
>4422 "Gauteng"
> 750 "KwaZulu-Natal"
> 600 "Eastern Cape"
> 439 "Western Cape"
> 400 "Northern Cape"
> 179 "Mpumalanga"
>
> - each time leaving out a couple others under 100.
>
> We believe that only names, not geometries have been taken from other
> maps so we'll remove and redact the names only. In identifying "names
> contributed by chdr" I took care to really only pick up the names that
> were introduced by them, not names that were there before, and also when
> chdr split a way that had a name I will make sure that the newly created
> way doesn't count as "named by chdr". Additionally, I have ignored those
> cases where chdr simply performed a TIGER expansion (St->Street etc) of
> a name that was there before.
>
> My process has two weak points (that I am aware of):
>
> 1. It doesn't properly "follow" a chrdr-contributed name through way
> splits performed by other users; if someone has split a way created by
> chdr, then the name will remain on the bit that was created by this
> user. This is somewhat unsatisfying but after having manually checked a
> random sample I think the problem is small enough to be ignored.
>
> 2. It is possible that, like with a recent case in Switzerland where I
> had to do a similar redaction, some of these chdr-contributed names will
> have been confirmed by others in a survey, i.e. someone else surveyed
> the area and checked the name, but saw no need to change it in any way
> since it was already correct. Sadly my process will now remove the name
> even though, 

[Talk-us] Redacting 75,000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   in 2010 I was privately contacted by another OSM user with the
suspicion that user "chdr" might be copying names from Google maps
(there were few "easter eggs" in Oman that were only on Google and not
in the real world, and they suddenly popped up on OSM). "chdr" was
contacted at the time, but continued unfazed. In 2013 another mapper
lodged a complaint with DWG about edits by chdr, and I emailed chdr
asking him about his sources. At that point chdr stopped mapping. He
never replied about his sources though, even when I set an ultimatum (of
31st August 2013) threatening to remove all names he contributed if he
can't tell us his source. We do have to assume that all names
contributed by chdr are copyright violations.

(chdr has added names all around the world, making a harmless survey
unlikely.)

For various reasons I neglected to act on this, and was only reminded
now, 5 years later, when DWG received a complaint from a user in Brazil
where chdr has even used "source=google" occasionally. (But as I said,
the suspicion is that Google was used throughout.)

I have now compiled a list of all street names that were contributed by
chdr and are still visible today; we're talking about almost 75,000
street names world wide. The most affected countries are:

  18023 "United States of America"
  16345 "Mexico"
  15109 "Brazil"
   6791 "RSA"
   2802 "Spain"
   2614 "Australia"
   1923 "Argentina"
   1673 "Nigeria"
   1569 "India"
   1441 "Canada"
954 "Malaysia"
744 "Botswana"
717 "Philippines"
619 "Indonesia"
553 "Italy"
414 "Turkey"
290 "Hungary"
284 "Chile"
250 "Kenya"
127 "Saudi Arabia"
107 "Paraguay"
106 "Panama"
100 "Morocco"

I've left out those countries with less than 100 affected ways.

For the US, I can break it down by state:

   5696 "Arizona"
   5116 "Texas"
   2294 "New York"
   1164 "District of Columbia"
740 "Iowa"
494 "Colorado"
416 "New Jersey"
339 "Illinois"
268 "Michigan"
239 "Pennsylvania"
181 "Missouri"
147 "Georgia"
129 "New Mexico"
123 "North Carolina"
115 "California"
106 "Virginia"

The breakdown for Mexico:

   7749 "Baja California"
   2084 "Puebla"
   1964 "Chihuahua"
   1539 "Coahuila"
   1161 "Mexico"
   1040 "Chiapas"
342 "Tamaulipas"
241 "Sonora"
185 "San Luis Potosi"
129 "New Mexico"

and Brazil:

  10904 "São Paulo"
   2605 "Paraná"
945 "Rio de Janeiro"
270 "Rio Grande do Sul"
154 "Goiás"

and South Africa:

   4422 "Gauteng"
750 "KwaZulu-Natal"
600 "Eastern Cape"
439 "Western Cape"
400 "Northern Cape"
179 "Mpumalanga"

- each time leaving out a couple others under 100.

We believe that only names, not geometries have been taken from other
maps so we'll remove and redact the names only. In identifying "names
contributed by chdr" I took care to really only pick up the names that
were introduced by them, not names that were there before, and also when
chdr split a way that had a name I will make sure that the newly created
way doesn't count as "named by chdr". Additionally, I have ignored those
cases where chdr simply performed a TIGER expansion (St->Street etc) of
a name that was there before.

My process has two weak points (that I am aware of):

1. It doesn't properly "follow" a chrdr-contributed name through way
splits performed by other users; if someone has split a way created by
chdr, then the name will remain on the bit that was created by this
user. This is somewhat unsatisfying but after having manually checked a
random sample I think the problem is small enough to be ignored.

2. It is possible that, like with a recent case in Switzerland where I
had to do a similar redaction, some of these chdr-contributed names will
have been confirmed by others in a survey, i.e. someone else surveyed
the area and checked the name, but saw no need to change it in any way
since it was already correct. Sadly my process will now remove the name
even though, had the name not been there in the first place, that person
could have added the name. This is not nice but I don't see how it could
be avoided.

Here's a list of way IDs affected, with country and state:

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/chdr.details

I am trying to keep the damage to OSM to a minimum while at the same
time respecting copyright. If anyone wants to spot check a few names in
their area and can suggest a refinement of the process that would leave
more names in place because there's reason to assume they are legit, I'm
all ears.

It has been suggested to me that even if names in the US were taken
from Google, Google would in turn have had them from TIGER and hence we
could simply leave them be. I am not convinced of this reasoning but
willing to hear that case argued.

It is sad that chdr isn't available for comment but I must take their
silence as an admission of wrongdoing. I will fire off another message
to them pointing to this thread.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik