[Talk-us] (New) Request for support when reverting the changeset 54846601

[Georg Verweyen]

I have discovered a marked shift in a point that leads the road through houses 
and other streets. Unfortunately, the JOSM plugin reverter doesn't always work 
on my laptop , so I have to ask for support. For details please refer to the 
mentioned changeset 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/54846601#map=15/40.6934/-73.9771

With thanks and best wishes Georg V. (OSM=user_5359)
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Re: [Talk-us] Walmart Import

[Peter Dobratz]

Ilya, I apologize for the tone of my last message.  Ian has done a good job
of restating my question in a reasonable manner.

Overall, I think this effort is great for filling in gaps in OSM data and I
applaud your efforts.  If I had looked more at the data review tool, I
would have realized that there is more of an element to manual review of
the data.   I will spend some time helping review the data.

Peter

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> Hi list,
>
> I wanted to remind everyone that we're all trying to make the map better
> here. Please be careful with the words you choose to use so that they
> aren't condescending or attacking.
>
> For example, in this message from Peter it's very easy to read the
> sentences about opening hours as a personal attack on Ilya and not a new
> critique of the proposal. It might have been better to write:
>
> "I'm worried that this import will replace more specific holiday opening
> hours with the generic year round string. Will the import process include a
> check to make sure the object hasn't changed since you ran the conflation
> so that changes like this don't get overwritten?"
>
> There's no need to make the claim that the import gets to have more weight
> (no one said it did) and there's no need to direct the message at Ilya. As
> has been discussed before, he's helping Brandify with tools.
>
> Happy holidays,
> Ian
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2017 01:47, "Peter Dobratz"  wrote:
>
> Ilya,
>
> I'm trying to wrap my head around how making this a "frictionless series
> of imports" is going to work.  So if a local mapper edits details on a
> Walmart, those details could potentially be swiftly overwritten with your
> data?
>
> As you can see, the opening hours for next week are non-standard due to
> the Christmas holiday.  What if someone decides they want to add that level
> of detail to the opening_hours tag:
> opening_hours=00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00; Dec 24 5:00-18:00; Dec 25 off; Dec
> 26 06:00-24:00
>
> How long until you automatically replace this with "05:00-01:00" ?
>
> Do you see the problem with doing that?
>
> As you say there are differences of opinion in how things are tagged.  Why
> does your opinion get to have more weight?
>
> Peter
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Thank you for suggestions.
>>
>> First, the highlighted tag value is what goes into OSM. In your case, the
>> import will keep the shop=department_store.
>>
>> Regarding updates to opening_hours, you are suggesting I parse each
>> opening_hours value and then compare these? It would be quite hard and in
>> my opinion excessive. With the two values being equivalent, I don't how the
>> data becomes worse. A few times I omitted "Mo-Su", I was being told it's
>> better to specify the weekdays, so it is again a matter of opinion.
>>
>> In your example, you override the definition for Monday, so it doesn't
>> demonstrate anything besides how complex the opening_hours notation is.
>>
>> The rest I answered in imports@, and some of it goes against what other
>> community members suggest, so again I can conclude that is a matter of
>> opinion and not important one way or another:
>>
>> * URL is provided by Walmart and is much better than what we have.
>> /whats-new can be fixed later, and does not really matter, because it still
>> takes to a store page.
>> * addr:full is provided by Walmart and may be used to improve addressing
>> where there are no addr:* tags. Sorry the importing script cannot do
>> conditional tagging.
>> * operator was recommended by community members, and is a good tag to
>> filter all Walmarts.
>> * ref:walmart will be used for updating the data. Ref may refer not only
>> to a store, but to a building or another feature.
>>
>> Please understand that this is not a one-off handcrafted import. We are
>> working on a process for frictionless series of imports, with regular
>> updates later on. I understand you have mapped a Walmart and feel
>> protective of it. I felt the same a few years into OSM, because everything
>> you add to the map is important. With this import, I believe it does not
>> make the data worse. More attributes is not bad, even if some of these are
>> redundant. The main thing is, until now there were zero mappers who care
>> about keeping all the Walmart stores in OSM up-to-date, and after, there
>> will be more. To me, that is a good thing.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ilya
>>
>>
>> > 21 дек. 2017 г., в 1:22, Peter Dobratz  написал(а):
>> >
>> > Ilya,
>> >
>> > Here's a Walmart that's been built in the last few years I recently
>> added to OSM:
>> >
>> > http://audit.osmz.ru/browse/walmart/5935
>> >
>> > What's currently in OSM represents my own mapping style, but I think
>> it's worth discussing the differences before you change them across the
>> whole country.
>> >
>> >
>> > If I read this correctly, you are planning on changing the top-level
>> 

Re: [Talk-us] Walmart Import

[Ian Dees]

Hi list,

I wanted to remind everyone that we're all trying to make the map better
here. Please be careful with the words you choose to use so that they
aren't condescending or attacking.

For example, in this message from Peter it's very easy to read the
sentences about opening hours as a personal attack on Ilya and not a new
critique of the proposal. It might have been better to write:

"I'm worried that this import will replace more specific holiday opening
hours with the generic year round string. Will the import process include a
check to make sure the object hasn't changed since you ran the conflation
so that changes like this don't get overwritten?"

There's no need to make the claim that the import gets to have more weight
(no one said it did) and there's no need to direct the message at Ilya. As
has been discussed before, he's helping Brandify with tools.

Happy holidays,
Ian

On Dec 22, 2017 01:47, "Peter Dobratz"  wrote:

Ilya,

I'm trying to wrap my head around how making this a "frictionless series of
imports" is going to work.  So if a local mapper edits details on a
Walmart, those details could potentially be swiftly overwritten with your
data?

As you can see, the opening hours for next week are non-standard due to the
Christmas holiday.  What if someone decides they want to add that level of
detail to the opening_hours tag:
opening_hours=00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00; Dec 24 5:00-18:00; Dec 25 off; Dec
26 06:00-24:00

How long until you automatically replace this with "05:00-01:00" ?

Do you see the problem with doing that?

As you say there are differences of opinion in how things are tagged.  Why
does your opinion get to have more weight?

Peter

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> Thank you for suggestions.
>
> First, the highlighted tag value is what goes into OSM. In your case, the
> import will keep the shop=department_store.
>
> Regarding updates to opening_hours, you are suggesting I parse each
> opening_hours value and then compare these? It would be quite hard and in
> my opinion excessive. With the two values being equivalent, I don't how the
> data becomes worse. A few times I omitted "Mo-Su", I was being told it's
> better to specify the weekdays, so it is again a matter of opinion.
>
> In your example, you override the definition for Monday, so it doesn't
> demonstrate anything besides how complex the opening_hours notation is.
>
> The rest I answered in imports@, and some of it goes against what other
> community members suggest, so again I can conclude that is a matter of
> opinion and not important one way or another:
>
> * URL is provided by Walmart and is much better than what we have.
> /whats-new can be fixed later, and does not really matter, because it still
> takes to a store page.
> * addr:full is provided by Walmart and may be used to improve addressing
> where there are no addr:* tags. Sorry the importing script cannot do
> conditional tagging.
> * operator was recommended by community members, and is a good tag to
> filter all Walmarts.
> * ref:walmart will be used for updating the data. Ref may refer not only
> to a store, but to a building or another feature.
>
> Please understand that this is not a one-off handcrafted import. We are
> working on a process for frictionless series of imports, with regular
> updates later on. I understand you have mapped a Walmart and feel
> protective of it. I felt the same a few years into OSM, because everything
> you add to the map is important. With this import, I believe it does not
> make the data worse. More attributes is not bad, even if some of these are
> redundant. The main thing is, until now there were zero mappers who care
> about keeping all the Walmart stores in OSM up-to-date, and after, there
> will be more. To me, that is a good thing.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya
>
>
> > 21 дек. 2017 г., в 1:22, Peter Dobratz  написал(а):
> >
> > Ilya,
> >
> > Here's a Walmart that's been built in the last few years I recently
> added to OSM:
> >
> > http://audit.osmz.ru/browse/walmart/5935
> >
> > What's currently in OSM represents my own mapping style, but I think
> it's worth discussing the differences before you change them across the
> whole country.
> >
> >
> > If I read this correctly, you are planning on changing the top-level tag
> from shop=department_store to shop=supermarket.  I have been using
> shop=supermarket only for Walmarts branded as "Walmart Neighborhood Market"
> and using shop=department_store for all other Walmarts.  For me the main
> distinction is that most Walmarts have departments for things like clothing
> and electronics that don't exist in the "Walmart Neighborhood Market"
> stores.
> >
> >
> > You are proposing changing the opening_hours tag from
> "00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00" to "Mo-Su 05:00-01:00".  When I'm adding opening
> hours, I avoid timespans that cross midnight as there is some difference of
> opinion as to what