Ilya, I apologize for the tone of my last message. Ian has done a good job of restating my question in a reasonable manner.
Overall, I think this effort is great for filling in gaps in OSM data and I applaud your efforts. If I had looked more at the data review tool, I would have realized that there is more of an element to manual review of the data. I will spend some time helping review the data. Peter On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Ian Dees <ian.d...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi list, > > I wanted to remind everyone that we're all trying to make the map better > here. Please be careful with the words you choose to use so that they > aren't condescending or attacking. > > For example, in this message from Peter it's very easy to read the > sentences about opening hours as a personal attack on Ilya and not a new > critique of the proposal. It might have been better to write: > > "I'm worried that this import will replace more specific holiday opening > hours with the generic year round string. Will the import process include a > check to make sure the object hasn't changed since you ran the conflation > so that changes like this don't get overwritten?" > > There's no need to make the claim that the import gets to have more weight > (no one said it did) and there's no need to direct the message at Ilya. As > has been discussed before, he's helping Brandify with tools. > > Happy holidays, > Ian > > > On Dec 22, 2017 01:47, "Peter Dobratz" <pe...@dobratz.us> wrote: > > Ilya, > > I'm trying to wrap my head around how making this a "frictionless series > of imports" is going to work. So if a local mapper edits details on a > Walmart, those details could potentially be swiftly overwritten with your > data? > > As you can see, the opening hours for next week are non-standard due to > the Christmas holiday. What if someone decides they want to add that level > of detail to the opening_hours tag: > opening_hours=00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00; Dec 24 5:00-18:00; Dec 25 off; Dec > 26 06:00-24:00 > > How long until you automatically replace this with "05:00-01:00" ? > > Do you see the problem with doing that? > > As you say there are differences of opinion in how things are tagged. Why > does your opinion get to have more weight? > > Peter > > On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Ilya Zverev <i...@zverev.info> wrote: > >> Hi Peter, >> >> Thank you for suggestions. >> >> First, the highlighted tag value is what goes into OSM. In your case, the >> import will keep the shop=department_store. >> >> Regarding updates to opening_hours, you are suggesting I parse each >> opening_hours value and then compare these? It would be quite hard and in >> my opinion excessive. With the two values being equivalent, I don't how the >> data becomes worse. A few times I omitted "Mo-Su", I was being told it's >> better to specify the weekdays, so it is again a matter of opinion. >> >> In your example, you override the definition for Monday, so it doesn't >> demonstrate anything besides how complex the opening_hours notation is. >> >> The rest I answered in imports@, and some of it goes against what other >> community members suggest, so again I can conclude that is a matter of >> opinion and not important one way or another: >> >> * URL is provided by Walmart and is much better than what we have. >> /whats-new can be fixed later, and does not really matter, because it still >> takes to a store page. >> * addr:full is provided by Walmart and may be used to improve addressing >> where there are no addr:* tags. Sorry the importing script cannot do >> conditional tagging. >> * operator was recommended by community members, and is a good tag to >> filter all Walmarts. >> * ref:walmart will be used for updating the data. Ref may refer not only >> to a store, but to a building or another feature. >> >> Please understand that this is not a one-off handcrafted import. We are >> working on a process for frictionless series of imports, with regular >> updates later on. I understand you have mapped a Walmart and feel >> protective of it. I felt the same a few years into OSM, because everything >> you add to the map is important. With this import, I believe it does not >> make the data worse. More attributes is not bad, even if some of these are >> redundant. The main thing is, until now there were zero mappers who care >> about keeping all the Walmart stores in OSM up-to-date, and after, there >> will be more. To me, that is a good thing. >> >> Thanks, >> Ilya >> >> >> > 21 дек. 2017 г., в 1:22, Peter Dobratz <pe...@dobratz.us> написал(а): >> > >> > Ilya, >> > >> > Here's a Walmart that's been built in the last few years I recently >> added to OSM: >> > >> > http://audit.osmz.ru/browse/walmart/5935 >> > >> > What's currently in OSM represents my own mapping style, but I think >> it's worth discussing the differences before you change them across the >> whole country. >> > >> > >> > If I read this correctly, you are planning on changing the top-level >> tag from shop=department_store to shop=supermarket. I have been using >> shop=supermarket only for Walmarts branded as "Walmart Neighborhood Market" >> and using shop=department_store for all other Walmarts. For me the main >> distinction is that most Walmarts have departments for things like clothing >> and electronics that don't exist in the "Walmart Neighborhood Market" >> stores. >> > >> > >> > You are proposing changing the opening_hours tag from >> "00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00" to "Mo-Su 05:00-01:00". When I'm adding opening >> hours, I avoid timespans that cross midnight as there is some difference of >> opinion as to what those timespans actually represent. I think most people >> would say that these two opening hours are equivalent, but if you were to >> have something like "Mo-Sa 05:00-01:00; Su 10:00-22:00" this illustrates >> the problem with different interpretations of times that span midnight: >> > http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?EXP=Mo-Sa% >> 2005%3A00-01%3A00%3B%20Su%2010%3A00-22%3A00 >> > http://projets.pavie.info/yohours/?oh=Mo-Sa%2005:00-01:00;%2 >> 0Su%2010:00-22:00 >> > I also omit "Mo-Su" when writing opening_hours as, in my opinion, this >> doesn't add value to the data and from a human-readable perspective it >> looks very similar to "Mo-Sa" which of course means something different. >> Another problem with "Mo-Su" is that it is equivalent to "Su-Sa" or any of >> the other 7 possible variations. >> > One of the problems with the opening_hours tag in general is that there >> are many ways of representing the same set of opening hours and I'm not >> aware of any efforts to establish a canonical representation for >> opening_hours. Can you avoid updating opening_hours if the new value is >> equivalent to the old value? >> > >> > >> > For the website tag, I prefer to use simple URLs: >> > http://www.walmart.com/ >> > https://www.walmart.com/store/5935/tigard-or/whats-new >> > The advantage to using the basic URL is that it will still continue to >> work in the future even if Walmart decides to reformat their webiste. The >> disadvantage is that it does not go to a page specific to this particular >> store. Reading through the imports list, I see there is already some >> discussion about whether to use the "whats-new" or "details" URL for each >> store. What happens in a year when the "whats-new" URL no longer works? >> > >> > >> > I would omit the addr:full tag at least on objects where addr:street >> and addr:housenumber already exist. >> > >> > >> > I would also omit the operator=Walmart tag. I only use operator if the >> value of the operator is different from the value of name. >> > >> > >> > The object already has ref=5935. The ref:walmart=5935 tag is >> superfluous and I would omit it. It's fairly well established practice to >> use the plain ref tag for mapping store identifiers. We don't need a >> separate ref:* tag for every store. >> > >> > >> > Overall, I think you need to put in more effort to determine whether >> the data that you are using to overwrite existing OSM data is in fact >> better. Since you want to get this done "before the New Year", maybe it >> would be better to just leave existing OSM tags alone for now and then >> manually check them against your dataset later. >> > >> > I don't have any specific examples handy, but I've seen cases where the >> data on the company website is wrong for things like postal code, house >> numbers, or streets. Sometimes it seems that companies change their >> addresses to get their geocoding service of choice to put the placemarker >> in the right spot, so I would be especially wary of changing existing OSM >> data. >> > >> > Peter >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Ilya Zverev <i...@zverev.info> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > As some of you know, Brandify company wants to import all the Walmart >> locations in the US into OpenStreetMap. They have full permission to do >> that. See the message from their VP Product, Damian, for more detailed >> explanation: >> > >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-Decem >> ber/005279.html >> > >> > After a brief discussion on the imports@ list, they made a few >> proposed changes, and I re-uploaded the result to my imports validation >> website. Could you please look through a couple dozen points, to ensure >> they will be added to correct locations with correct tags? The more the >> better — I plan to to a few hundred myself: >> > >> > http://audit.osmz.ru/project/walmart >> > >> > I really hope we can finish this before the New Year. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Ilya >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-us mailing list >> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-us mailing list >> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > >
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