Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
> Clifford Snow wrote: > I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications. Truly, I think that's great. And again, the many forms of communication OSM uses, including new ones, are a natural part of a project as large and diverse as OSM is. There ARE a great many, some of which "resonate with an appropriate audience, in a certain niche" better than others. As has been described here, Slack is claimed by its users to appeal to a certain niche of "chat," Jeffrey's X, Y, Z examples are excellent descriptions. > For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the > Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to the > community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and even > more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is dead. With another OSM volunteer here on an email back-channel, I now discuss early thinkings about an existing, working-for-years software bridge between IRC and Jabber/XMPP he uses that sounds like it could mimic aspects of Slack using open source. Not a huge amount of effort modifying this software bridge could breathe new life into IRC as it is/can be used by OSM participants. This is a medium-scope back-burner for me right now, but it shows with a little glue and effort, open source can be leveraged yet again to fill a desire/need. Peering off into the distance a bit, I am here. > Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects of > what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be > engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want > to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other > forms of communications, means the community has chosen. Precisely what I wish OSM to guard against: the false choice that "choosing" one means a certain exclusivity of others. A "danger" here (as well described by Frederik) is to freeze out participation, as in "hush, we discussed this on Slack last year and you weren't there." Such exclusivity enables this, we don't want this, (as you state, communication is vital), and "the community has chosen" seems to contradict or at least clash. > I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists to > communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to > nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that > maybe because people use Slack in their day job. "People use" is only the subset who do. Importantly, that is a long, long way from everybody, or being inclusive towards communication in our very wide community. In fact, it bumps up against that danger of exclusivity I want to call attention to so we avoid it. > I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more agreeable > terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is objectionable? Rather than "get lost in the weeds" of specific paragraphs I find objectionable and why...(yawn, snore), I believe this list resonates enough with a higher-level description of "commercial software, with (perhaps) onerous or difficult-to-agree-with clauses/paragraphs, and the entire proprietary nature that being commercial and licensed implies." We're adults, though it has gotten much easier to blithely click an "I agree" button and now you are under the thumb of the publisher of the software, with very, very little ability to negotiate better terms (more openness/transparency, more clarity with regard to data ownership and retention...). "Open source vs. proprietary" is an even more brief way to say it that most people can understand. The concept is also well-respected, and all over the world, too. Not to mention it resonates well with OSM, whose first name, after all, is Open. > I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the > community or should we look elsewhere? Again, it isn't "either-or" and some kind of false choice of "let's standardize on one thing." We not doing that, we shouldn't do that. Thank you for the +1, Mark. Jeffrey, yes, "too much control in the hands of a commercial entity" is concise (and a good start, even enough). As well as X, Y, Z and "noise tends to overwhelm signal" and "real-time can exclude less-dedicated members." Excellent, all of these. Maybe the best thing to come out of this is wider discussion of the many communication methods OSM DOES use, and how they fit into niches and particular workflows, and what works (better, worse) and what doesn't. That should be ongoing, anyway, so I suppose we can say we're doing OK. I often wish us to do better, nudge, nudge. Sometimes that begins with good discussion. Look, we presently have here a rough initial inventory of communication methods/channels/protocols/software. I'll take that as a good beginning. SteveA California
Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:21 PM, Bryan Housel > wrote: > >> > I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the >> community or should we look elsewhere? >> >> Glad you asked! I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better. >> >> Here are some advantages.. >> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks >> > > Signing up for a mailing list is really that hard? > Mailing lists and forums solve a different problem than chat systems like Slack or IRC. All of these systems can co-exist at the same time and support people who want to communicate in different ways. But to answer your question, I assist at least one person a week with figuring out how to subscribe to the OSM mailing lists I moderate. The mailman system we're using is rather confusing, especially to people who haven't experienced mailing lists before. > * works well for both sync and async chat >> > > I completely disagree on the async chat. Maybe it would work if people > took advantage of the conversation threading features that Slack and some > other clients offer but they rarely do. Therefore you're stuck scanning > pages and pages of comments looking for needles in haystacks and trying to > reconstruct the conversations. > What's interesting to me about Slack is that if someone mentions you while you're away, you'll get an email or phone notification with a link to the context of the mention. This lets me follow important conversations or answer questions if someone asks me directly. If I want to, I can skip over everything else very easily. This goes back to the difference between mailing list/forum-style communication and real-time communication with IRC/Slack. All of these systems can (and should) exist together to support people who prefer different styles of communication. > > >> * decent search >> > > It has search, but the fact that Slack's (and many others are the same) > search is a walled garden makes its use limited. > Sure, messages aren't indexed by Google by default, but I've never once run into a useful search result from IRC logs in Google. Slack's built-in search is very useful and I use it all the time from within the app. > > >> * everyone is on it >> >> I really can’t imagine going back to something else. I’d happily pay for >> it if they asked me to. >> >> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on >> the GIS Spatial Community Slack. I have no idea how many people are >> subscribed to the talk-us mailing list. >> > > 800 people signed up for an account, but only 20 or so have a client open. > I hadn't even logged in since September 2017 when this discussion started. > Doesn't really sound to me like everyone is making use of Slack. > There are 806 people signed up and our weekly active user count is around 160 with ~4500 chats sent in the last month. There are 506 people subscribed to the talk-us mailing list, with approximately 15% not receiving any messages from the list and around 50 messages posted over the last month. I think both are healthy communities and, as I said above, it's totally OK for them to co-exist and support people who like to participate in different ways. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:21 PM, Bryan Housel wrote: > > I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the > community or should we look elsewhere? > > Glad you asked! I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better. > > Here are some advantages.. > * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks > Signing up for a mailing list is really that hard? > * works well for both sync and async chat > I completely disagree on the async chat. Maybe it would work if people took advantage of the conversation threading features that Slack and some other clients offer but they rarely do. Therefore you're stuck scanning pages and pages of comments looking for needles in haystacks and trying to reconstruct the conversations. > * decent search > It has search, but the fact that Slack's (and many others are the same) search is a walled garden makes its use limited. > * everyone is on it > > I really can’t imagine going back to something else. I’d happily pay for > it if they asked me to. > > There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on > the GIS Spatial Community Slack. I have no idea how many people are > subscribed to the talk-us mailing list. > 800 people signed up for an account, but only 20 or so have a client open. I hadn't even logged in since September 2017 when this discussion started. Doesn't really sound to me like everyone is making use of Slack. -- Jeff Ollie The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
Hi all, I have had good experience with riot.im matrix.org it is open source, mobile friendly and has an irc gateway. On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Simon Poole wrote: > > > Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel: > >> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the > community or should we look elsewhere? > > Glad you asked! I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better. > > > > Here are some advantages.. > > * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks > > * great mobile experience > > * good for sharing files / screenshots > > * works well for both sync and async chat > > * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but > also mark things as read (like our welcome users feed) > > * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything > you want really) > > * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people > in to a discussion > > * ability to mute and set availability times > > * user profiles > > * decent search > > You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for > completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ... > .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc). > > > * everyone is on it > That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially > force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other > competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden. > > SImon > > > > > I really can’t imagine going back to something else. I’d happily pay > for it if they asked me to. > > > > Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very > common situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the > people who are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will > be the ones who respond. > > > > There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 > on the GIS Spatial Community Slack. I have no idea how many people are > subscribed to the talk-us mailing list. > > > > I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists. We should still copy > things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community. > > > > Just my thoughts > > Thanks, Bryan > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Talk-us mailing list > > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > -- James Michael DuPont ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel: >> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the >> community or should we look elsewhere? > Glad you asked! I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better. > > Here are some advantages.. > * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks > * great mobile experience > * good for sharing files / screenshots > * works well for both sync and async chat > * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but also > mark things as read (like our welcome users feed) > * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything you > want really) > * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people in > to a discussion > * ability to mute and set availability times > * user profiles > * decent search You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ... .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc). > * everyone is on it That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden. SImon > > I really can’t imagine going back to something else. I’d happily pay for it > if they asked me to. > > Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very common > situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the people who > are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will be the ones > who respond. > > There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on the > GIS Spatial Community Slack. I have no idea how many people are subscribed > to the talk-us mailing list. > > I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists. We should still copy > things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community. > > Just my thoughts > Thanks, Bryan > > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
