Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Clifford Snow]

I asked the Jamestown S'Klallam Tribe, near Sequim, WA for updated
boundaries. The state boundaries did not match what was on the tribes
website. They provided me with an update - the same one they just sent the
Census Bureau. With the 2020 census my guess is that TIGER might have some
good boundaries. (I didn't ask, but found it interesting that Census came
directly to the tribe instead of BIA.)

Jamestown S'Klallam brings up the question of rendering off reservation
trust lands. I asked Jamestown, they recommended rendering it differently.
For those not on Slack, I asked the same question there - should we create
a rendering for off reservation trust lands? This tribe is a good example
of why we might want to. They have substantially more off reservation lands
than reservation lands. The tribe closest to me (Swinomish) has one small
lot of off reservation land, but a large reservation. They could probably
care less. (The lot is located in downtown La Conner - a small tourist town
nearby. It's not in OSM. )

I'd like others opinion of rendering. Washington maybe totally different
than the rest of the country.

Happy New Years All,
Clifford

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:18 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> I've reached out to a couple of the nearby reservations, one with a small
>> parcel of off reservation land trust, the other with only a small
>> reservation but a very large off reservation land trust. I don't expect
>> answers until possibly after the new year. Unlike Oklahoma, Washington
>> reservations are pretty straight forward. The Yakama Nation has a large
>> disputed area but I'm inclined to show it as reservation land. I haven't
>> updated it yet because the borders are tied up in multiple relations that
>> need undoing.
>>
>
> Well, that's mostly fortunate.  The disputed area and definitely Fort
> Simcoe would be potentially sore spots to look out for and look into more
> if reasonable.
>


-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Bill Ricker]

Kevin asks,
> is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in winter or
just not maintained?

Per copyright news reports, it is signed as closed to wheeled vehicles,
open to snow-machines only, in winter.
(As should be obvious, to correctly tag this according to our license, we
do need some on-the ground or license0compatible verification of the facts
form the news, as well as a decision on what tags to use.)

OSM has a gate node at at least the south end, with a note calling for more
details. Unclear if it's an actual gate or the seasonal prohibition sign
encoded as a gate. (Problem with gates being if it's locked, and then
frozen, the larger rescue cats/ATV or fire trucks may have to fight it
open. The ATVs that  rescued these folks probably needed any gate open to
get up after them, let alone the tow that recovered the car?)

On the side topic of "The GPS made me do it", I just found out Tim Harford
aka "The Undercover Economist" closes season 1 of his new Podcast
"Cautionary Tales", discussing mistakes and learning from them, with Ep.8  You
have reached your desination

drawing a connection from Greek Oracles to over-faith in modern SATNAV.
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[brad]

Considering the keys pointed to by Zeke, I also like winter_service=no.

There are a few US or state highways in CO which close, the tagging is 
not consistent.


US 34, Independence pass
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/627645541#map=17/39.10849/-106.55914
"motor_vehicle"="conditional=no @ winter"

US 34, Rocky mtn NP,  way 329057779
has it embedded in the name and also:
access:conditional=no @ Oct 14th - May 31st

I'd like to point out that many of the roads in the rocky mtns are not 
maintained in the winter.   That goes for almost every forest service 
road, and many county roads.   I think it's proper to leave these 
without an explicit winter tag with the implicit understanding that safe 
passage is not guaranteed.



On 1/1/20 9:50 PM, Zeke Farwell wrote:

This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.

Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area 
of Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:

Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843

Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:

  * access:conditional


  * seasonal

  * winter_service


winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not 
knowing how the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put 
/"closed in winter"/ right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  
It's not correct data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a 
map are sure to see it.



On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker > wrote:



> Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down
Snowmobile Path. BURLINGTON (CBS)
> It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New
Hampshire.
> ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is
restricted to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> 2 days ago
>

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail

Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through
Jefferson Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point
in the notch (aka "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is
3,009 feet (917 m), only barely below the height of Mount Mitten
(929 m) which the road passes, and lower than Currier Mtn (838 m)
just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young mountains, but at this
latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect even the winter
snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only by
parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
changeable conditions.

(I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during
winter.)

In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging
shortcut between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few
in the environs of Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the
White Mountains.

OSM -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating
seasonally variable access.
Proposed tagwinter_service=no


isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.

What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic
automobile mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?


-- 
Bill Ricker

bill.n1...@gmail.com 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Greg Troxel]

Tod Fitch  writes:

> In the California Sierra Nevada I tagged a couple of roads with:
>
> conditional:access=“no @ (Nov-May)”
> note=“Seasonal closure from first snow until spring, see CalTrans website for 
> status”
> website=“http://www.dot.ca.gov/cgi-bin/roads.cgi”
>
> With the barrier=gate at either end of the seasonal section tagged with the 
> same conditional:access and note tags.
>
> In retrospect, I probably should have used a description tag rather than a 
> note tag for the descriptive text.

Agreed on description vs note.  My impression is that note is appopriate
to communicate something to future mappers, when the intent is to have
them improve it and remove the note.  Perhaps I only feel that way
because OsmAnd shows note= and fixme= when osm editing support is turned
on.

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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Kevin Broderick]

If we're going with access:conditional, it *should* be mode-of-transport
specific.  It's pretty common for closed-in-winter roads to be open to
non-wheeled transport (e.g. skis and snowmachines); the other road I've
lived near (Beartooth Pass, US 212 between Red Lodge and Cooke City,
Montana) falls into the same category. I don't think I ever figured out a
good way to tag it, and while it's since been updated with maxspeed and
lane data, it's not marked as seasonal (among the ways involved:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/454632622#map=15/44.9886/-109.4233&layers=ND).
That road is a particularly interesting case because there's a section
that's closed and gated based on a schedule (but open to over-snow vehicles
and skiers / cyclists / etc) as well as a portion that's not maintained for
winter travel, posted "Road Closed", and regularly traveled (and sometimes
even plowed) by locals until snow gets deep enough to make it impassable
without a tracked vehicle.

Also, is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in winter
or just not maintained? That's a very important distinction for some
drivers in the late fall and early spring (i.e. before snow depth is
sufficient to make it impassable). winter_service= and access:conditional=
both seem important pieces of data to note, but I'm not opposed to adding
"closed in winter" as an additional part of the name, assuming most data
consumers won't adequately consider access:conditional or winter_service.


On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 11:52 PM Zeke Farwell  wrote:

> This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.
>
> Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area of
> Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:
> Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
> VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843
>
> Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:
>
>- access:conditional
>
> 
>- seasonal
>
>- winter_service
>
>
> winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not knowing
> how the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put  *"closed in
> winter"* right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  It's not correct
> data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a map are sure to see it.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker  wrote:
>
>>
>> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
>> BURLINGTON (CBS)
>> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New
>> Hampshire.
>> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is
>> restricted to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
>> > 2 days ago
>> >
>> https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
>>
>> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
>> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
>> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
>> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
>> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
>> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
>> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
>> by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
>> changeable conditions.
>>
>> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
>> snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
>>
>> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
>> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
>> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
>>
>> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
>> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
>> variable access.
>> Proposed tag winter_service=no
>> 
>> isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
>>
>> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
>> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill Ricker
>> bill.n1...@gmail.com
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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-- 
Kevin Broderick
k...@kevinbroderi