Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti
On 1/23/2012 9:52 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Over the past couple of months, I have armchair-mapped several highway junctions in the United States which are "commonly complex" in that they involve multiple turn restrictions, street name changes and pedestrian crossing placements. I would like to have some critique from someone experienced in mapping such junctions so that I ensure I am following current best practice and am not just creating a bunch of plates of unpalatable spaghetti. Two recent junctions are found in the following permalink views * http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.095879&lon=-75.296179&zoom=18&layers=M * http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.128273&lon=-77.237731&zoom=18&layers=M Yuck. A separate way should not be used for a turn lane (unless that lane is separated by barriers or maybe a wide striped-off area). Corollary: a separated right-turn lane begins and ends approximately where the traffic island begins and ends, not where the separate lane begins and ends. Turn restrictions are not for identifying which lane goes where. They are for restrictions on turning (e.g. if no left turn is allowed, you use a no_left_turn restriction). Thus neither example needs any restrictions, since you can turn in any direction from any approach. (Some mappers like to use what are, frankly, completely redundant restrictions that force you to do what any router will have you do anyway, such as no right turn at the intersection if there's an island-separated right turn lane.) The second one is a simple crossing of two divided roads, found all over the place (e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.38582&lon=-81.506134&zoom=18&layers=M - note if you check against the aerial that the west-to-south right turn has recently received an island). Of course the above is just my opinion, strongly influenced by what I have seen as standard practice all over the country. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti
+1 it's nowhere close to a standard to split lanes. It is just a plate of spaghetti. hard to edit and maintain for no good reason. If it where anywhere where I care I'd just revert that. On Jan 23, 2012, at 8:20 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On 1/23/2012 9:52 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: >> Over the past couple of months, I have armchair-mapped several highway >> junctions in the United States which are "commonly complex" in that they >> involve multiple turn restrictions, street name changes and pedestrian >> crossing placements. >> >> I would like to have some critique from someone experienced in mapping such >> junctions so that I ensure I am following current best practice and am not >> just creating a bunch of plates of unpalatable spaghetti. >> >> Two recent junctions are found in the following permalink views >> * http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.095879&lon=-75.296179&zoom=18&layers=M >> * http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=39.128273&lon=-77.237731&zoom=18&layers=M > > Yuck. A separate way should not be used for a turn lane (unless that lane is > separated by barriers or maybe a wide striped-off area). > Corollary: a separated right-turn lane begins and ends approximately where > the traffic island begins and ends, not where the separate lane begins and > ends. > > Turn restrictions are not for identifying which lane goes where. They are for > restrictions on turning (e.g. if no left turn is allowed, you use a > no_left_turn restriction). Thus neither example needs any restrictions, since > you can turn in any direction from any approach. (Some mappers like to use > what are, frankly, completely redundant restrictions that force you to do > what any router will have you do anyway, such as no right turn at the > intersection if there's an island-separated right turn lane.) > > The second one is a simple crossing of two divided roads, found all over the > place (e.g. > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.38582&lon=-81.506134&zoom=18&layers=M - > note if you check against the aerial that the west-to-south right turn has > recently received an island). > > Of course the above is just my opinion, strongly influenced by what I have > seen as standard practice all over the country. > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On 1/23/2012 9:52 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: > Yuck. A separate way should not be used for a turn lane (unless that lane is > separated by barriers or maybe a wide striped-off area). > Corollary: a separated right-turn lane begins and ends approximately where > the traffic island begins and ends, not where the separate lane begins and > ends. Better fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=27.987056&lon=-82.5464&zoom=18&layers=M ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti
On 1/24/2012 8:45 AM, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 1/23/2012 9:52 PM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Yuck. A separate way should not be used for a turn lane (unless that lane is separated by barriers or maybe a wide striped-off area). Corollary: a separated right-turn lane begins and ends approximately where the traffic island begins and ends, not where the separate lane begins and ends. Better fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=27.987056&lon=-82.5464&zoom=18&layers=M Yawn. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On 1/24/2012 7:07 AM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: Thanks for your feedback, both positive and negative. The reason for the complexity and seeming overuse of ways and restrictions is that I am mapping legally binding pavement markings along with the actual travel ways. It is my understanding that pavement markings are as enforceable as stop signs and traffic lights and, therefore, are subject to key:access type treatment, such as through use of turn restriction relations. I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white line does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a double yellow as a median. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white line > does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a double > yellow as a median. *You* don't map a "double yellow" (I assume you mean a double double yellow) as a median. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On 1/24/2012 8:33 AM, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white line does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a double yellow as a median. *You* don't map a "double yellow" (I assume you mean a double double yellow) as a median. No, I mean a double yellow. As in do not pass. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On 1/24/2012 8:33 AM, Anthony wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II >> wrote: >>> >>> I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white line >>> does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a >>> double >>> yellow as a median. >> >> >> *You* don't map a "double yellow" (I assume you mean a double double >> yellow) as a median. >> > No, I mean a double yellow. As in do not pass. That doesn't legally prevent crossing either. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On 1/24/2012 9:20 AM, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 1/24/2012 8:33 AM, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white line does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a double yellow as a median. *You* don't map a "double yellow" (I assume you mean a double double yellow) as a median. No, I mean a double yellow. As in do not pass. That doesn't legally prevent crossing either. It does if there are no intersections nearby. (Any other exceptions, such as passing an obstruction, would also apply to crossing a double white.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On 1/24/2012 9:20 AM, Anthony wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Nathan Edgars II >> wrote: >> >>> On 1/24/2012 8:33 AM, Anthony wrote: >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > > I don't know about Pennsylvania, but here in Florida a single white > line > does not legally prevent crossing. But even if it did, we don't map a > double > yellow as a median. > *You* don't map a "double yellow" (I assume you mean a double double yellow) as a median. No, I mean a double yellow. As in do not pass. >>> >> >> That doesn't legally prevent crossing either. >> >> It does if there are no intersections nearby. (Any other exceptions, > such as passing an obstruction, would also apply to crossing a double > white.) Florida's driver's manual says that crossing any double-white line is prohibited. You're confusing double white with single white. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On 1/24/2012 10:24 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: Florida's driver's manual says that crossing any double-white line is prohibited. You're confusing double white with single white. No, I'm not. And I agree with Mikel that this sort of reply is unproductive. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Check my junctions - looking for someone to review my plates of spaghetti -- responding to feedback
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On 1/24/2012 10:24 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: >> >> Florida's driver's manual says that crossing any double-white line is >> prohibited. You're confusing double white with single white. > > > No, I'm not. And I agree with Mikel that this sort of reply is unproductive. The fact that double yellow means "crossing the centerline markings for passing is prohibited" and not "crossing the centerline markings is prohibited" is quite significant. You can, if it is safe and not otherwise prohibited, make a left turn across a double yellow. You can, if it is safe and not otherwise prohibited, make a U-turn across a double yellow. The only sense in which a double yellow prevents crossing "if there are no intersections nearby", is if any place where someone might turn is called an intersection. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
