Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com]

Thank you and your team for the valuable assistance on this, Andy.The users who seem to be part of the team affecting the Denver area, are:Bonya_23premtemp2Irina KarachevtsevaBogDan_OlegovichAndreyhmkVictoria1901InessaZavadaukrainian_falconCheers! :)-Original Message-
From: Andy Townsend 
Sent: Apr 28, 2018 3:06 PM
To: Talk us 
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair


  

  
  

On 23/04/18 10:54, Jack Armstrong
  dan...@sprynet.com wrote:


  
  ... There are 6-8 new users who just started
editing in and around Denver. Circumstantial evidence seems to
indicagte they are part of a team in that they all started about
the same time, their edits are remarkably similar and they all
use the same changeset comment, "adding parking". They don't
respond to changeset comments.
  


Just as a heads-up to people in the US, the DWG is still
investigating changesets by these mappers.  One group of changes (by
Bonya_23) is currently being reverted in
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/58500784 .

The reason, as noted in the changeset comment, is "see
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4355762
and https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Bonya_23/blocks for laundry
list of issues; no communication".  Essentially other mappers have
tried again and again to contact this user, but nothing useful
happened.  Also, as you can see from the changeset discussion
comments, this mapper has had continual problems with "mapping
things that don't exist", and the lack of communication and poor
quality leaves us with no option but to revert.  The way that the
revert's done means that where other mappers have already tidied up
afterwards these tidyings won't be lost.

Best Regards,

Andy

  



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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/04/18 10:54, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote:
... There are 6-8 new users who just started editing in and around 
Denver. Circumstantial evidence seems to indicagte they are part of a 
team in that they all started about the same time, their edits are 
remarkably similar and they all use the same changeset comment, 
"adding parking". They don't respond to changeset comments.


Just as a heads-up to people in the US, the DWG is still investigating 
changesets by these mappers.  One group of changes (by Bonya_23) is 
currently being reverted in 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/58500784 .


The reason, as noted in the changeset comment, is "see 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4355762 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Bonya_23/blocks for laundry list of 
issues; no communication".  Essentially other mappers have tried again 
and again to contact this user, but nothing useful happened.  Also, as 
you can see from the changeset discussion comments, this mapper has had 
continual problems with "mapping things that don't exist", and the lack 
of communication and poor quality leaves us with no option but to 
revert.  The way that the revert's done means that where other mappers 
have already tidied up afterwards these tidyings won't be lost.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com]

Hyperbole? Not at all. It appears in just the one changeset, 57914505, this user created approximately 5,800 untagged nodes. The user was contacted, but does not respond. There are 6-8 new users who just started editing in and around Denver. Circumstantial evidence seems to indicagte they are part of a team in that they all started about the same time, their edits are remarkably similar and they all use the same changeset comment, "adding parking". They don't respond to changeset comments.In this changeset (not Denver), the user created some odd lines. Maybe they mean something, but I don't understand them. If the user replied, it would help to understand the user's edits. This does not look like, "added parking". I'm not hating on new users. I would love for them to join OSM and help map. All I'm saying is that there is a new group of mappers who are creating poor edits and will not communicate.https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?changeset=57918111#map=17/33.10686/-117.18078-Original Message-
From: Greg Morgan 
Sent: Apr 23, 2018 11:10 AM
To: "ajt1...@gmail.com" 
Cc: Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user	Nakaner-repair

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:42 PM, ajt1...@gmail.com  wrote:
  

  
  
On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote:

  
  I fully support the efforts of Nakaner.
There are 6-8 users creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado
area.


What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment
on changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad").  I see that
someone's already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node
additions" that you're presumably referring to here (if that was you
- thanks!), but often locals are by far the best people to say "that
doesn't look correct".  See
https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an example near me
by one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE mappers to
the problems there.


  


See
here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736Okay so Jack fully supports Nakaner.  He reports that 6-8 users are creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area.  If we look at the node that Jack is pointing to, then we will see that Victoria1901, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901 has made 30 edits.  There are zero blocks against her.   Hyperbole!  Hyperbole!  So she didn't draw in the way.  Honestly, are we going to grow new mappers or not.  We have to let new people fail.  That's part of the learning process.  In the same area is chachafish, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chachafish.  The user has 124,710 edits.  Is there something that you don't like?  So have I covered two of the 6-8 editors messing up Denver Colorado?Regards,Greg


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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Greg Morgan]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com <
jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:

> I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a
> mess in the Denver, Colorado area.
>
> See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=
> 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736
>


I cannot tell.  What is it that these six to eight mappers are doing?  Are
these the same six to eight mappers that are receiving blocks?

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> While you might think this is a good example for why such a policy is
> needed it seems to me that the motivation for both the user blocks by
> the DWG and the main argument that led to the conclusion in the German
> forum that the edits should be reverted was that the mappers in
> question did not react to attempts to contact them.


I can't speak to the German situation, but this is the sort of thing in
general that I'm happy to buck upstairs to the DWG.

I've only once needed to, and it was a parallel situation, a mapper
doing a "drive by" import that overwrote some carefully hand-curated data,
not responding to OSM messages nor changeset comments. I didn't
want to fire the first shot in an edit war, so I asked DWG to intervene.
They did an admirable job - including being able to identify the data
source that the questionable data came from. They also caught some
conflicts that I'd missed, and prompted me to improve data in those
areas as well.

I didn't care at all whether the importer was a paid mapper. I cared
that the importer had overlaid 'boots on the ground' data with
verifiably incorrect data, had never discussed the import, and didn't
respond to changeset comments or OSM messages. I'm absolutely
fine with paid mappers who follow the rules. If you want to map features
for SEO, but you're supplying correct data, not overwriting other people's
work, and following good tagging practice, have at it! That's a win-win,
the map learns the locations and capabilities of the stores, and the
owner gets the visibility. But "replace good data with bad, and don't
talk with me about how to repair it," that's not acceptable.

If it is true that these changes are being done by an army of
sock puppets, then the DWG has its work cut out for it. Catching
all those fish might involve a drift net, which might inevitable
snag a dolphin or two.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 20 April 2018, Clifford Snow wrote:
> [...]
>
> Nakaner post a changeset comment which impart said:
>
> you seem to be part of a paid/organized/commercial editing activity.
> We have been telling your workmates for more than one week that you
> must add a note to your profile page at openstreetmap.org which
> states which company/organisation you belong to, who pays you for
> editing and which software, technology and rules you use to determine
> which roads you edit. You can edit the content of your user profile
> page via your user settings at openstreetmap.org.
>
>
> Please add that information and answer all questions before you
> upload any further edits to OpenStreetMap! Otherwise I will revert
> all your edits!

Yes, i saw that.  Note however none of this played a role in the 
discussion on the German forum.

IMO in cases where mappers do not react to attempts at communication at 
all this is a general problem not specific to organized/directed 
editing activities.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Clifford Snow]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Friday 20 April 2018, Ian Dees wrote:
> >
> > I'd be interested in seeing all of these reverts reverted (at least
> > in the US) until discussion can take place.
>
> I don't know about these changes or the reverts of them in detail but on
> a general note here:  If mappers find edits they consider
> questionable - either factually or methodologically - and attempts to
> get in contact with the mapper making those edits fail it is commonly
> accepted practice that mappers can revert such changes.  This happens
> every day many times all over the world and is a good way to reduce the
> workload of the DWG by not getting them involved in all the small
> matters mappers can resolve between each other.
>

Nakaner post a changeset comment which impart said:

you seem to be part of a paid/organized/commercial editing activity. We
have been telling your workmates for more than one week that you must add a
note to your profile page at openstreetmap.org which states which
company/organisation you belong to, who pays you for editing and which
software, technology and rules you use to determine which roads you edit.
You can edit the content of your user profile page via your user settings
at openstreetmap.org.


Please add that information and answer all questions before you upload any
further edits to OpenStreetMap! Otherwise I will revert all your edits!

The user in question, a first time editor, added some service roads,
alleys, driveways and business service roads. They were all good. But my
concern is twofold. First the edits all look good. Yes they should have
added service= type, but that's not uncommon with a new mapper. There is no
good reason to revert. Second, as far as I know the Directed Edits Policy
has not been approved. Nakaner is attempting to enforce a policy before it
become a policy.


> If what the discussion on the German forum indicates is accurate, i.e.
> that there is a group of mappers performing organized edits which
> reject attempts to contact them and evade blocks established to ensure
> they do not continue without getting in contact with the community by
> creating sockpuppet accounts, i am pretty sure the local US community
> does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best
> accompish that would be a good subject of discussion.
>

None of us like users that don't respond to changeset comments, especially
when we know they are paid mappers. I mostly think of the SEO firms
dropping nodes with incomplete and often wrong information. Our efforts to
stop those have failed. The most infamous, what I called the "Updated" SEO,
uses a different user name with every edit. They may be doing this to avoid
disruption by users and especially DWG.   I think it is time for a new
approach.

Clifford
-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 20 April 2018, Mikel Maron wrote:
>
> [...]Nakaner seems to be
> applying an organized editing policy here without grounds.

While you might think this is a good example for why such a policy is 
needed it seems to me that the motivation for both the user blocks by 
the DWG and the main argument that led to the conclusion in the German 
forum that the edits should be reverted was that the mappers in 
question did not react to attempts to contact them.

> While you are probably correct that the US community does not want
> this kind of behavior,, as far as I can tell no one was consulted
> outside of the German forum discussion, where the US community does
> not tend to hang out -- so I'm not sure you should just make this
> assumption. [...]

As said i don't want to assess Nakaners actions here.  If the edits in 
question have a clear focus on or are limited to the US is would 
probably have been a good idea to approach the US community about them.

But keep in mind that the thread in the German forum was started because 
a German speaking mapper came across questionable edits.  It is 
completely all right to start a discussion on the German forum on 
that - after all we do not even have a German language channel with 
global scope which might have been a better place for that.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[Mikel Maron]

> If mappers find edits they consider questionable - either factually or 
>methodologically - and attempts to get in contact with the mapper making those 
>edits fail it is commonly accepted practice that mappers can revert such 
>changes
While that is somewhat correct (I question how common or accepted or in what 
cases a revert is called for, but anyway...), that's not what's happening as 
far as I understand. All edits are being reverted without evaluation of their 
individual merit. 
Nakaner seems to be applying an organized editing policy here without grounds. 
We do not have an official policy, nor do we have guidance on how this kind of 
situation would be managed.
I am not saying there is not an issue here with the edits by these mappers and 
this group. Just that this action by Nakaner does not look to be particularly 
well thought through.
>  i am pretty sure the local US community does not want this to continue in 
>their domain and how to best accomplish that would be a good subject of 
>discussion
While you are probably correct that the US community does not want this kind of 
behavior,, as far as I can tell no one was consulted outside of the German 
forum discussion, where the US community does not tend to hang out -- so I'm 
not sure you should just make this assumption. How best to accomplish this 
would actually be a good subject of discussion, but _before_ a mass action such 
as the one Nakaner has deputized himself to do.
-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Friday, April 20, 2018, 12:30:02 PM EDT, Christoph Hormann 
 wrote:  
 
 On Friday 20 April 2018, Ian Dees wrote:
>
> I'd be interested in seeing all of these reverts reverted (at least
> in the US) until discussion can take place.

I don't know about these changes or the reverts of them in detail but on 
a general note here:  If mappers find edits they consider 
questionable - either factually or methodologically - and attempts to 
get in contact with the mapper making those edits fail it is commonly 
accepted practice that mappers can revert such changes.  This happens 
every day many times all over the world and is a good way to reduce the 
workload of the DWG by not getting them involved in all the small 
matters mappers can resolve between each other.

OTOH reverting an edit, even if that edit itself is a revert, without 
trying to discuss it with the mapper making it, is generally not 
considered to be acceptable.

I don't want to assess Nakaner's edits with that but your call for a 
blanket revert of them without a previous discussion giving him the 
chance to explain his intentions with those edits and their merit would 
not be in line with established practice in OSM.

If what the discussion on the German forum indicates is accurate, i.e. 
that there is a group of mappers performing organized edits which 
reject attempts to contact them and evade blocks established to ensure 
they do not continue without getting in contact with the community by 
creating sockpuppet accounts, i am pretty sure the local US community 
does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best 
accompish that would be a good subject of discussion.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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