Re: [Talk-us] Ferries - ferry

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Hi again, Nathan:

Clifford Snow  is working on this, too, at least 
identifying Washington State ferries without a duration tag.  I know you two 
know each other (he did introduce us last summer!), so a heads up that you 
might want to coordinate with him to not overlap effort.

While it is certainly true that "Street" is our middle name, I certainly do 
like the way our "additional" transportation modes and networks (bikes, trains, 
ferries, bus routes...) are being added and improved in OSM!

Happy mapping,
Steve
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[Talk-us] Ferries - ferry

[Natfoot]

Hey all,

I was looking at ferries on OSM in Washington State, USA and was wondering
if there is a world based OSM wiki page like there is for railways.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railways

I am double checking with the community before going ahead and developing
this page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ferries to look more like the
page above for Railways.

Then I can work on a regional page for Washington State.

Best Regards,
Nathan P
email: natf...@gmail.com


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

 Am 08/nov/2013 um 18:15 schrieb Ivan Komarov jkoma...@gmail.com:
 
 I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than 
 trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. 
 There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it 
 fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, 
 but on the long run it would work better, I believe.

+1

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Paul Johnson]

I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used
for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure
how I'd tag the queue lot.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

  It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
  to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
  for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
  industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
  service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
  the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
  were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
  fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
  revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
  in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
  generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
  tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
  primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
  to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

 That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
 misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
 the documented semantics.

 So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
 highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Greg Troxel]

Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
 to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
 for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
 industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
 service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
 the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
 were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
 fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
 revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
 in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
 generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
 tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
 primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
 to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
the documented semantics.

So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
highway=unclassified.




pgpbNKyPQ1Xwl.pgp
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Ivan Komarov]

I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than
trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly.
There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it
fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while,
but on the long run it would work better, I believe.
On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane
 used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not
 sure how I'd tag the queue lot.


 On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

  It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
  to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
  for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
  industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
  service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
  the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
  were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
  fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
  revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
  in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
  generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
  tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
  primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
  to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

 That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
 misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
 the documented semantics.

 So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
 highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the
talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we
should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want
to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag.

 

-Compdude

 

From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Paul Johnson
Cc: talk-us
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

 

I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than
trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly.
There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it
fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while,
but on the long run it would work better, I believe. 

On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used
for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure
how I'd tag the queue lot.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
 to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
 for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
 industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
 service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
 the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
 were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
 fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
 revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
 in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
 generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
 tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
 primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
 to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
the documented semantics.

So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Paul Johnson]

Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the
world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than
anything.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote:

 Shouldn’t we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than
 the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so
 we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we
 want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag.



 -Compdude



 *From:* Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com]
 *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM
 *To:* Paul Johnson
 *Cc:* talk-us
 *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] Ferries



 I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather
 than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object
 correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless
 we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues
 for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe.

 On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane
 used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not
 sure how I'd tag the queue lot.



 On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

  It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
  to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
  for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
  industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
  service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
  the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
  were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
  fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
  revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
  in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
  generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
  tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
  primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
  to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

 That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
 misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
 the documented semantics.

 So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
 highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Clifford Snow]

If we have consensus on what the US thinks is appropriate, then I agree
that it belongs on the tag list.

Does anyone have objection to bringing a proposal to create a
highway=ferry_link tag? I'd especially like to hear from people working
with routing (that's you Telenav)

Is ferry_link the appropriate tag? The ferries I ride all have a queue
area. Do we tag the queues like parking lots with a way through the queue?


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the
 world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than
 anything.


 On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shouldn’t we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than
 the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so
 we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we
 want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag.



 -Compdude



 *From:* Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com]
 *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM
 *To:* Paul Johnson
 *Cc:* talk-us
 *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] Ferries



 I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather
 than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object
 correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless
 we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues
 for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe.

 On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane
 used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not
 sure how I'd tag the queue lot.



 On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

  It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
  to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
  for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
  industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
  service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
  the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
  were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
  fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
  revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
  in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
  generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
  tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
  primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
  to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

 That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
 misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
 the documented semantics.

 So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
 highway=unclassified.



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-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

But let's not forget that there's lots of ferries in Europe too! This would
not just be a tag for use here on ferry routes here in the Salish Sea, but
also ones in other parts of the world.

 

-Compdude

 

From: Paul Johnson [mailto:ba...@ursamundi.org] 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 6:20 PM
To: talk-us
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

 

Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the
world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than
anything.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote:

Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the
talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we
should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want
to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag.

 

-Compdude

 

From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Paul Johnson
Cc: talk-us
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

 

I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than
trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly.
There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it
fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while,
but on the long run it would work better, I believe. 

On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used
for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure
how I'd tag the queue lot.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
 to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
 for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
 industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
 service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
 the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
 were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
 fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
 revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
 in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
 generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
 tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
 primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
 to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
the documented semantics.

So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

Re the ferry waiting areas, I've been tagging each lane as an individual way
with the tags highway=service, the lane # in the name=* tag, and have made
it be one-way. I have also done this for each lane going into the
tollbooths. See the Mukilteo ferry terminal [1] and Edmonds ferry terminal
[2] for examples. I was not the first to do this; it was previously done at
some of BC Ferries' terminals, for example take a look at the Tsawwassen
terminal [3] and the Horseshoe Bay terminal. [4] What do you guys think of
this way of mapping ferry terminals. I know it's kinda going off on a
tangent, but I just thought it would be good to bring up.

 

Also, what is the proper way of mapping ferry routes when the ferries have
multiple berths/ docks at a terminal (and they use whatever one they feel
like), like in the Horseshoe Bay example, and many BC Ferries' major
terminals for that matter? Martijn, could you do a routing test on these
ferry routes and tell me how it works? The wiki says to connect ferry routes
directly to a road on land rather than another ferry route way in order to
ensure proper routing.

 

-Compdude

 

Links:

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.94864/-122.30474

[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/47.81123/-122.38429
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/47.81123/-122.38429layers=N 

[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.0074/-123.1309

[4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.3721/-123.2745

 

 

From: Clifford Snow [mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us] 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 7:19 PM
To: Paul Johnson
Cc: talk-us
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

 

If we have consensus on what the US thinks is appropriate, then I agree that
it belongs on the tag list. 

 

Does anyone have objection to bringing a proposal to create a
highway=ferry_link tag? I'd especially like to hear from people working with
routing (that's you Telenav)

 

Is ferry_link the appropriate tag? The ferries I ride all have a queue area.
Do we tag the queues like parking lots with a way through the queue? 

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the
world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than
anything.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote:

Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the
talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we
should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want
to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag.

 

-Compdude

 

From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Paul Johnson
Cc: talk-us
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

 

I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than
trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly.
There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it
fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while,
but on the long run it would work better, I believe. 

On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used
for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure
how I'd tag the queue lot.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:


Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
 to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
 for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
 industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
 service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
 the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
 were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
 fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
 revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
 in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
 generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
 tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
 primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
 to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

That's fair enough.  I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my
misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than
the documented semantics.

So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be
highway=unclassified.



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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/11/7 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com

 It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
 to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
 for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
 industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
 service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
 the route,



+1, there is also service=alley which some mappers use also in Europe, for
narrow alleys in medieval towns (usually you can't drive there with a car,
or hardly, but in Italy there is normally no restriction and you could
enter with a small car and many do so, and even more enter with
motorbikes). But still I agree, you won't use this for routing in the
middle of a route, it would only make sense to take these at the start or
end.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[stevea]

Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:


 It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to
 these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes
 service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks
 through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231


Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com writes:  It seems wrong to adjust 
tagging because of a particular router.


I would say that you should fix your routing.  If they are service
roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your
policy led to.

I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through
service roads when such usage would be frowned on.  But at the same
time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road,
that's what you have to do.

Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads
(somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on
regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok.


A very big +1 to this.  Posing a challenge to the construction of 
an accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling 
through data changes for what would essentially be a one-off 
convenience.  Greg Troxel's suggestion about 
regular-service-regular and regular-service-ferry sounds 
perfectly reasonable and can certainly be made to work for this 
particular case.  Inside of a routing algorithm is exactly where this 
sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data changes that are 
more convenient for it.


SteveA
California

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Clifford Snow]

On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:49 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

 A very big +1 to this.  Posing a challenge to the construction of an
 accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling through
 data changes for what would essentially be a one-off convenience.  Greg
 Troxel's suggestion about regular-service-regular and
 regular-service-ferry sounds perfectly reasonable and can certainly be
 made to work for this particular case.  Inside of a routing algorithm is
 exactly where this sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data
 changes that are more convenient for it.


I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is making
the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway we call it a
motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a similar feature of a ferry
route. It certainly isn't a service road except in a broad sense. There was
agreement to tag the service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my
first choice but it works.

There is a push in OSM to include addresses. One of the big advantages we
gain is the ability to route from door to door. For that we need ferry
routing. Living in an area with one of the largest ferry systems in the
world[1], I appreciate efforts to solve the problem.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferries
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Thu, Nov 7, 2013, at 06:30 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
 I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is making
 the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway we call it
 a motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a similar feature of a
 ferry route. It certainly isn't a service road except in a broad sense. There
 was agreement to tag the service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my
 first choice but it works.

How about highway=ferry_link then?

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[stevea]

OK, Clifford, I take your point very well.  It may not be one-off, 
but when routing algorithms chase data in this way, we CAN say it 
comes close to tagging for the algorithm and is therefore to be 
discouraged.  But this might be considered a sharpening up of the 
data in a perfectly valid way which also supports routing algorithms.


How about a sane tagging scheme that will capture highway=ferry_link 
similar to highway=motorway_link?  That's off-the-cuff, but might be 
enough.  I think there was talk of this (or something similar) 
earlier, I'd have to go back in the threads and look.


Concomitantly, routing algorithms can and should pay attention to 
said tagging scheme.


SteveA
California


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:49 AM, stevea 
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.comstevea...@softworkers.com wrote:


A very big +1 to this.  Posing a challenge to the construction of 
an accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling 
through data changes for what would essentially be a one-off 
convenience.  Greg Troxel's suggestion about 
regular-service-regular and regular-service-ferry sounds 
perfectly reasonable and can certainly be made to work for this 
particular case.  Inside of a routing algorithm is exactly where 
this sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data changes 
that are more convenient for it.



I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is 
making the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway 
we call it a motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a 
similar feature of a ferry route. It certainly isn't a service road 
except in a broad sense. There was agreement to tag the 
service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my first choice but 
it works.


There is a push in OSM to include addresses. One of the big 
advantages we gain is the ability to route from door to door. For 
that we need ferry routing. Living in an area with one of the 
largest ferry systems in the world[1], I appreciate efforts to solve 
the problem. 


[1] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferrieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferries
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Greg Troxel]

Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to
 these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes
 service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks
 through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231

It seems wrong to adjust tagging because of a particular router.

I would say that you should fix your routing.  If they are service
roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your
policy led to.

I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through
service roads when such usage would be frowned on.  But at the same
time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road,
that's what you have to do.

Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads
(somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on
regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok.


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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Martijn van Exel]

It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic
to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally
for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite,
industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a
service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of
the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it
were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in
fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to
revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen
in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition
generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different
tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even
primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but
to bring more consistency to OSM in general.

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:

 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes:

 It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to
 these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes
 service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks
 through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231

 It seems wrong to adjust tagging because of a particular router.

 I would say that you should fix your routing.  If they are service
 roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your
 policy led to.

 I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through
 service roads when such usage would be frowned on.  But at the same
 time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road,
 that's what you have to do.

 Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads
 (somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on
 regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok.

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Martijn van Exel]

Evin - a footway would not affect our routing results as those would
only include ways navigable by motorized vehicles. Or perhaps I am not
understanding what you did.  Clifford - this would hopefully also
answer your question about walking routing: currently, we don't.)

Clifford, as for distinguishing between passenger-only ferries - that
would be something that would ideally be regulated with access tags,
do you agree?
So a an access road to a car ferry could then be:
highway=service
service=ferry

and the ferry itself could then be:
route=ferry
ref=...
foot=yes
motorcar=yes
motorcycle=yes
bicycle=yes

What we haven't covered is implied access for ferries. My best guess
would be that foot=yes could be implied (i.e. only if there is no
pedestrian access would we tag foot=no, and foot=yes would be
optional).




On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote:
 If you already tried routing through those two ferry routes, I'd suggest
 trying again, since I just added a footway onto the passenger terminals.
 Previous routing tests would have produced inaccurate results.

 -Compdude


 On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:


 On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals
 worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new
 highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it
 would be less complicated in getting it to render.


 If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only
 ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car ferry,
 and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do walking
 routing?




 --
 Clifford

 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch





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OSM data specialist
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.comwrote:

 Evin - a footway would not affect our routing results as those would
 only include ways navigable by motorized vehicles. Or perhaps I am not
 understanding what you did.  Clifford - this would hopefully also
 answer your question about walking routing: currently, we don't.)


Oh, I thought that your routing tests were involving walking routes, too,
rather than just routing with a car. That's why I mentioned that I added
the footways on the ferry docks.

-Compdude
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

If you already tried routing through those two ferry routes, I'd suggest
trying again, since I just added a footway onto the passenger terminals.
Previous routing tests would have produced inaccurate results.

-Compdude


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:


 On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote:

 Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals
 worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new
 highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it
 would be less complicated in getting it to render.


 If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only
 ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car
 ferry, and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do
 walking routing?




 --
 Clifford

 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals
worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new
highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it
would be less complicated in getting it to render.

-Compdude


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:


 On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote:

 When I made relations for all the state highways in Washington, I
 included the ferry routes and the ferry access roads in the highway route
 relation. I also have done some edits to ferry terminals, adding a way for
 each lane in the ferry waiting lot. This was previously done at some ferry
 terminals in BC.

 I agree with tagging the ferry terminal roads with service=ferry.


 The service=ferry works for me, but I'd like to point out that it isn't
 consistent with other highway tags linking different road segments. The
 wiki describes motorway_link, primary_link, etc. Rather than describe the
 normally short road segment as a service road, why not highway=ferry_link?

 service=ferry does have the advantage that the render wouldn't stumble.



 --
 Clifford

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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Clifford Snow]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote:

 Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals
 worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new
 highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it
 would be less complicated in getting it to render.


If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only
ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car
ferry, and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do
walking routing?




-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Ferries

[Evin Fairchild]

When I made relations for all the state highways in Washington, I included
the ferry routes and the ferry access roads in the highway route relation.
I also have done some edits to ferry terminals, adding a way for each lane
in the ferry waiting lot. This was previously done at some ferry terminals
in BC.

I agree with tagging the ferry terminal roads with service=ferry.

-Compdude


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.comwrote:

 Clifford,

 I actually raised that possibility in the discussion we had as well! I
 would prefer (and think it's more elegant) if there were a route
 relation covering both the access roads and the ferry route itself, as
 we use route relations extensively already. Is there an established
 place in the route relation network= hierarchy for ferry routes? It
 looks like they are at the same level as land-based state highways, so
 they would be route=ferry, network=US:WA?

 Martijn

 On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:
  I check one of Seattle's ferry terminals. service roads connect city
 streets
  to the ferry route. Washington State assigns these routes as highways
 with a
  number. Each of the service roads has an ref (eg. ref: WA 305) associated
  with the routes. I wonder how this impacts routing? For example,
  http://osm.org/go/WIdFBesd9--
 
 
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