Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Mike N]

On 1/9/2018 8:47 PM, Jack Burke wrote:
Someone on the osmus Slack channel pointed out that this would affect 
routing for people who are in the town and want to go somewhere else in 
town, where that route wouldn't normally involve travelling on the major 
through roads.


  I haven't thought through this, but wouldn't that be the same as 
going down a road access=destination, then trying to find a new route 
back out?   Otherwise they are heading to a destination in town, so it's 
still access=destination.



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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Jack Burke]

Someone on the osmus Slack channel pointed out that this would affect routing 
for people who are in the town and want to go somewhere else in town, where 
that route wouldn't normally involve travelling on the major through roads. 

-jack 


On January 9, 2018 4:31:22 PM EST, Paul Norman  wrote:
>On 1/8/2018 10:53 AM, Jack Burke wrote:
>> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do 
>> about this.
>>
>>
>http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
>
>If they actually go through with it, access=destination on the 
>applicable streets, or motor_vehicle=destination if it's motor vehicles
>
>only.
>
>I think what they're doing is a bad idea and unlikely to achieve their 
>stated goals, but that's a problem of the city, not us. We just need to
>
>map what they do accurately.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Paul Norman]

On 1/8/2018 10:53 AM, Jack Burke wrote:
I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do 
about this.


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/


If they actually go through with it, access=destination on the 
applicable streets, or motor_vehicle=destination if it's motor vehicles 
only.


I think what they're doing is a bad idea and unlikely to achieve their 
stated goals, but that's a problem of the city, not us. We just need to 
map what they do accurately.


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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

What most of us largely "know" (in this context, as we, myself included, posit 
both opinion and potential solutions) comes from a web-based news article.  It 
isn't clear to me that a local ordinance has already passed specifying 
"something."  Same with signs on-the-ground, speaking personally, I don't know.

We are a know-it, see-it, tag-it project.  Local knowledge is helpful and often 
preferred.  Please let those guide us here.

SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:53:02 -0500
Jack Burke  wrote:

> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> about this. 

Tag traffic signs? It is not clear from article is it 

- motor_vehicle=destination
- vehicle=destination
- toll=yes
- nothing, article is just misleading or incomplete

Or some of above combined with conditions.

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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Rihards]

On 2018.01.08. 21:42, Andrew Matheny wrote:
>>are there matching street signs ?
> 
> I'm not sure. But if we know a street has legally-restricted access, I
> think our tagging should match that access regardless of whether there's
> a sign or not. 

yeah, my question was exactly about this - how is this legally codified ?
if they intend to rely on stopping random people and asking "WHAT
BUSINESS YOU HAVE HERE", it will stop soon.

> Example: Service roads inside an apartment complex (usually tagged
> "access=private") are an example of tagging access without a sign.

these are public streets, though

> If anything, I'm betting they'll have signs posted on the unaffected
> major streets at city limits, which is where you'll often see signs
> about cell phone usage while driving or red light cameras.

sorry, did you mean "affected" ?

>>of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
> making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
> 
> Respectfully, I don't think mapping features that don't actually exist
> is a good practice in the long-run. 

should have been more specific. i believe the city should have
rearranged the traffic flow that would still be useful to the locals,
but make it less attractive for shortcuts, not that we should introduce
fake data :)

> I think a conditional access tag is the best way to go here, since it's
> the only one that will restrict access according to the city's ordinance.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andrew
> 
> On Jan 8, 2018 1:28 PM, "Rihards"  > wrote:
> 
> On 2018.01.08. 21 :07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> > I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional
> access tag, no?
> >
> > Something like:
> >
> > access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)
> 
> are there matching street signs ?
> of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
> making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
> the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
> competent.
> 
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke"  
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> > about this.
> >
> >   
>  
> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
> 
> 
> >   
>  
>  
> >
> >
> > --jack
> >
> > --
> > Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
> ...
> --
>  Rihards-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Andrew Matheny]

>are there matching street signs ?

I'm not sure. But if we know a street has legally-restricted access, I
think our tagging should match that access regardless of whether there's a
sign or not.

Example: Service roads inside an apartment complex (usually tagged
"access=private") are an example of tagging access without a sign.

If anything, I'm betting they'll have signs posted on the unaffected major
streets at city limits, which is where you'll often see signs about cell
phone usage while driving or red light cameras.

>of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.

Respectfully, I don't think mapping features that don't actually exist is a
good practice in the long-run.

I think a conditional access tag is the best way to go here, since it's the
only one that will restrict access according to the city's ordinance.

Thanks,

Andrew

On Jan 8, 2018 1:28 PM, "Rihards"  wrote:

On 2018.01.08. 21:07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag,
no?
>
> Something like:
>
> access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

are there matching street signs ?
of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
competent.

> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke"  > wrote:
>
> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> about this.
>
> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-
navigational-apps/
> 
>
> --jack
>
> --
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
...
--
 Rihards
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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Mike N]

On 1/8/2018 2:17 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

I might suggest a solution OSM might consider can be to tag access=destination 
and/or residential=living_street.


 From the video, they're definitely not living_street, so most likely 
access=destination.


But the streets should not "be deleted" as the mayor and residents wish.

   The 'deleted' term is likely a casual way to phrase "remove from 
through-routing", and they're not really seeking blank maps for their 
region.


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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Rihards]

On 2018.01.08. 21:07, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag, no?
> 
> Something like:
> 
> access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

are there matching street signs ?
of course, a better approach would be adding traffic calming features or
making roads one-way so that cut-through would not be beneficial much.
the reporting segment did not portray the local govt as being very
competent.

> Thanks,
> 
> Andrew
> 
> On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke"  > wrote:
> 
> I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do
> about this.
> 
> 
> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/
> 
> 
> 
> --jack
> 
> -- 
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
...
-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

First, as they are public (not private) streets, anybody has the right to 
traverse them.  Yes, a local ordinance might (in the near future) prohibit 
access for "cut-through," it is the right of the municipality to pass such an 
ordinance and for local police to enforce it.  "We don't want the mappers to 
put these data into their maps and navigation apps" simply isn't going to 
happen, as we (mappers) are not going to be "muzzled:"  these are real data in 
the real world.  Censorship is not the answer, rather it is proper tagging 
which feeds routing algorithms.

I might suggest a solution OSM might consider can be to tag access=destination 
and/or residential=living_street.  There might also be a note tag briefly 
explaining the local ordinance which gives rise to such a local preponderance 
of access tags.  But the streets should not "be deleted" as the mayor and 
residents wish.  With the right tags, the apps' routing algorithms won't 
include these streets, and the problem (as it is perceived as coming from 
"navigation apps") is effectively solved.

SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Andrew Matheny]

I believe the affected streets would just need a conditional access tag, no?

Something like:

access:conditional=destination @ (06:00-10:00; 16:00-21:00)

Thanks,

Andrew

On Jan 8, 2018 12:55 PM, "Jack Burke"  wrote:

I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do about
this.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

--jack

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
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[Talk-us] Leonia, NJ doesn't want you to navigate through

[Jack Burke]

I'll leave it to others to decide what, if anything, we should do about this. 

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/01/05/leonia-streets-off-navigational-apps/

--jack

-- 
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