Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Russ Nelson wrote: > I'm also pretty sure that people will join or not > join, and use or not use osm-professional depending on how good a job > Serge does. Rather than pre-judge him, why don't we ... If you create a new list and announce that it will be moderated to ensure professional conduct, isn't that already pre-judging the participants? I don't really know what is normal in the US; maybe people over there are more used to others having their thumbs on the "beep" button in case someone says something evil. But I, personally, feel offended by the idea that someone else feels the need to censor my words. (Censorship is, I believe, the correct term for what Serge calls "full moderation"; censorship does not imply that words are changed or removed, it just says that words will not get through without the censor hitting the "ok" button.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
SteveC writes: > If we're throwing the 1st amendment out the door, The First Amendment is part of the social contract between US citizens and their government. To wit: the government doesn't pass any laws restricting speech; the citizens don't overthrow the government; everybody happy. I'm pretty sure that Serge isn't in a position to pass laws restricting speech. I'm also pretty sure that people will join or not join, and use or not use osm-professional depending on how good a job Serge does. Rather than pre-judge him, why don't we let him live or die depending on how well he does? Oops, I meant let the LIST live or die. The LIST, the LIST, not Serge himself. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
As far as the purpose of the group as distinct from this one, my hope for the "professional" group would be to focus on sustainably maintaining data in OpenStreetMap that meet non-OSM business needs. I contribute to OSM somewhat casually. I map things I am familiar with. But as an official three-piece-suit-wearing establishmentarian, I am looking to OSM as a place to store and manage corporate data. Maps being representations of reality, and different needs requiring different representations, I'm not sure that it is possible. But it's worth a look. Take points of interest as an example. Internally, my organization has at least two datasets that contain over 10,000 points of interest in a metropolitan area. We want to contribute this to OSM, and we want to reap the benefits of the combined knowledge of the metropolitan residents to improve that dataset. However, those datasets needs to continue to meet internal business needs. Although it doesn't match the scale, it would be equivalent to the US Census Bureau uploading TIGER to OSM, encouraging and participating in improvements from the OSM community, and then extracting the data to create census blocks. Whether this is possible, and if so, how best to do it technically and organizationally are the questions I have. Matt -Original Message- From: talk-us-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-us-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Randy Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:37 PM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional Randy wrote: >Richard Weait wrote: > >>On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski >> wrote: >>>On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm >>> wrote: >> >>>>Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of >>>>osm-talk just moderated? >>> >>>I see osm-professional as mainly focusing on a new audience of people >>>who currently aren't subscribed to any OSM list, with a focus on >>>people using osm in a professional context. >>> >>>If it's similar to any other list, it'd probably be "newbies"- but >>>newbies is really about getting involved in the project in the sense >>>of contributing to the project, where I see osm-professional as about >>>people who may not want to be individual contributors but still have a >>>connection to OSM. >> >>Perhaps "Newbies" is the answer. >>Traffic is lower. >>We try to restrain ourselves from diving into perpetual tagging, etc., >>discussions. >>"Newbies" already has the expectation that questions should be >>answered without a dose of "that's a stupid question." >>To succeed "Newbies" needs a number of folks willing to answer >>questions for folks not already steeped in the culture of OSM. And a >>number of new folks to ask questions. >> >>I think the expectation of acceptable behaviour is in place at >>Newbies. I think the demographics are so similar that no revision of >>mandates is required. The only thing missing is a way to make "new >>OSM pros" think that they aren't being treated like "newbies", because >>obviously, the are professionals. >> >>ln -s newbies osm-professional # enh? See what I did there? > >I sure don't understand what all the fuss is about. If there was an NTTP >group where I didn't agree with the management process, I just wouldn't >join it. Is the fuss because it has "openstreetmap" in its name? Maybe it >should just be gmane.comp.gis.professionals_interested_in_mapping. Surely >no one is so dictatorial about anarchy that they couldn't stomach that! Woops. NNTP Sorry Richard, by replying to your message, it looks like I was slamming your idea. I didn't intend to be negative about a constructive idea, even though I don't agree with it. From what I understand (which is no more than anyone else and less than some) I suspect the demographics are not at all the same. I would suspect that osm-professional would be significantly more directed toward use of the data than creating data. But then, I'm not the anarchist that went off and did my own thing by creating the group, so I shouldn't be making assumptions. -- Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Randy wrote: >Richard Weait wrote: > >>On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski >> wrote: >>>On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm >>> wrote: >> Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of osm-talk just moderated? >>> >>>I see osm-professional as mainly focusing on a new audience of people >>>who currently aren't subscribed to any OSM list, with a focus on >>>people using osm in a professional context. >>> >>>If it's similar to any other list, it'd probably be "newbies"- but >>>newbies is really about getting involved in the project in the sense >>>of contributing to the project, where I see osm-professional as about >>>people who may not want to be individual contributors but still have a >>>connection to OSM. >> >>Perhaps "Newbies" is the answer. >>Traffic is lower. >>We try to restrain ourselves from diving into perpetual tagging, etc., >>discussions. >>"Newbies" already has the expectation that questions should be >>answered without a dose of "that's a stupid question." >>To succeed "Newbies" needs a number of folks willing to answer >>questions for folks not already steeped in the culture of OSM. And a >>number of new folks to ask questions. >> >>I think the expectation of acceptable behaviour is in place at >>Newbies. I think the demographics are so similar that no revision of >>mandates is required. The only thing missing is a way to make "new >>OSM pros" think that they aren't being treated like "newbies", because >>obviously, the are professionals. >> >>ln -s newbies osm-professional # enh? See what I did there? > >I sure don't understand what all the fuss is about. If there was an NTTP >group where I didn't agree with the management process, I just wouldn't >join it. Is the fuss because it has "openstreetmap" in its name? Maybe it >should just be gmane.comp.gis.professionals_interested_in_mapping. Surely >no one is so dictatorial about anarchy that they couldn't stomach that! Woops. NNTP Sorry Richard, by replying to your message, it looks like I was slamming your idea. I didn't intend to be negative about a constructive idea, even though I don't agree with it. From what I understand (which is no more than anyone else and less than some) I suspect the demographics are not at all the same. I would suspect that osm-professional would be significantly more directed toward use of the data than creating data. But then, I'm not the anarchist that went off and did my own thing by creating the group, so I shouldn't be making assumptions. -- Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Richard Weait wrote: >On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski > wrote: >>On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm >> wrote: > >>>Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of >>>osm-talk just moderated? >> >>I see osm-professional as mainly focusing on a new audience of people >>who currently aren't subscribed to any OSM list, with a focus on >>people using osm in a professional context. >> >>If it's similar to any other list, it'd probably be "newbies"- but >>newbies is really about getting involved in the project in the sense >>of contributing to the project, where I see osm-professional as about >>people who may not want to be individual contributors but still have a >>connection to OSM. > >Perhaps "Newbies" is the answer. >Traffic is lower. >We try to restrain ourselves from diving into perpetual tagging, etc., >discussions. >"Newbies" already has the expectation that questions should be >answered without a dose of "that's a stupid question." >To succeed "Newbies" needs a number of folks willing to answer >questions for folks not already steeped in the culture of OSM. And a >number of new folks to ask questions. > >I think the expectation of acceptable behaviour is in place at >Newbies. I think the demographics are so similar that no revision of >mandates is required. The only thing missing is a way to make "new >OSM pros" think that they aren't being treated like "newbies", because >obviously, the are professionals. > >ln -s newbies osm-professional # enh? See what I did there? I sure don't understand what all the fuss is about. If there was an NTTP group where I didn't agree with the management process, I just wouldn't join it. Is the fuss because it has "openstreetmap" in its name? Maybe it should just be gmane.comp.gis.professionals_interested_in_mapping. Surely no one is so dictatorial about anarchy that they couldn't stomach that! -- Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: >> Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of >> osm-talk just moderated? > > I see osm-professional as mainly focusing on a new audience of people > who currently aren't subscribed to any OSM list, with a focus on > people using osm in a professional context. > > If it's similar to any other list, it'd probably be "newbies"- but > newbies is really about getting involved in the project in the sense > of contributing to the project, where I see osm-professional as about > people who may not want to be individual contributors but still have a > connection to OSM. Perhaps "Newbies" is the answer. Traffic is lower. We try to restrain ourselves from diving into perpetual tagging, etc., discussions. "Newbies" already has the expectation that questions should be answered without a dose of "that's a stupid question." To succeed "Newbies" needs a number of folks willing to answer questions for folks not already steeped in the culture of OSM. And a number of new folks to ask questions. I think the expectation of acceptable behaviour is in place at Newbies. I think the demographics are so similar that no revision of mandates is required. The only thing missing is a way to make "new OSM pros" think that they aren't being treated like "newbies", because obviously, the are professionals. ln -s newbies osm-professional # enh? See what I did there? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> >> Several people specifically asked me for a fully moderated list. > > Then please ask these people to go look for a project that does not do > crowdsourcing. You cannot fix an engine without getting oil on your hands, > and you cannot reap the benefits of a crowdsourcing project without dealing > with human beings. I think that what you're saying makes sense for some people, but not others. OSM provides wonderful lists for both technical folks and people who are deeply interested in the project. But what if I'm an organization which has interest in OSM peripherally? An example that's come up is a school system may want to do a project involving OSM. A school administrator is interested in learning about the community, but isn't really interested in the types of things we talk about normally (technical issues, tagging discussions, data representations). Also, these types of people tend to be a little more (to use a British phrase) 'prim and proper'. Maybe they'll personally never be contributors to our project, but they may open the door for some great work. I'd like us to find a place for such opportunities, and in my mind, this new list would be such a place. >> At the same time, knowing this request and the reason for it, I >> understood their concerns and wanted to let them know that this list, >> unlike t...@openstreetmaup, would be monitored for behavior > > The decisive factor for me is: Will a message I write get through without > you reading it before the others do, or will it not. Whether the community > kick me out *afterwards* because I have written something that they don't > like, that's another matter. But being pre-filtered (what you seem to call > "fully moderated") is not acceptable, and I would even go so far as to say > this is so much un-OSM that such a list should not be officially sanctioned > by being hosted on OSM servers. Let people have their nice and cleansed > community at Yahoo groups or on their own private mail servers but not at > OSM. Based on some feedback I've been given, I'm working on a code of conduct for this list. Holding folks to this code of conduct seems like it should satisfy both sides, probably without the need to (using your terminology) "pre-filter". Would such a solution make you happy? Even if it meant that if there was a violation, we might have to remove this person from the list? >> 1) We don't say anything. We say "This is a new list" and then there >> are arbitrary decisions about moderation, or kicking people off. I >> don't think this is a friendly way to run a community. > > It is highly unlikely that an osm-professional list would even attract > people you would want to kick. Sometimes tempers flare, people become passionately involved. It happens to me at least... > You haven't even started and already you are making rules about whom you > want to > kick out. I was trying to avoid making rules to kick anyone out... but maybe that's better than moderation? And the list has been around for nearly two months, just not announced and no traffic (while I sorted some things out). >> 3) We don't do any moderation. Well, we have a list like this already >> and it's been a problem for us, > > Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of > osm-talk just moderated? I see osm-professional as mainly focusing on a new audience of people who currently aren't subscribed to any OSM list, with a focus on people using osm in a professional context. If it's similar to any other list, it'd probably be "newbies"- but newbies is really about getting involved in the project in the sense of contributing to the project, where I see osm-professional as about people who may not want to be individual contributors but still have a connection to OSM. > Well these people surely haven't talked to me, or offered their opinion in > any forum that I have been reading. Maybe we're just having a naming problem > really. I thought that being a professional OSM service provider I should > naturally be on that list. If you would select a name that makes it more > clear that this is an entry-level safe forum for US newcomers rather than a > mailing list for professional OSM users, that would then not give the > impression of being the place where all the OSM professionals ought to be > and I could safely ignore it ;-) I don't intend the list to be only for US folks. The fact the moderators are in the US is more to do with the fact that I know them. It's similar to why most of the "old time" OSMers are British... I think I understand Steve's concern, which is that he feels that OSM as a project is about free expression, and any moderation is against that. I'm less sure I understand your concerns, so let me try to repeat them to test my understanding: You don't want any pre-filter on your messages because you feel it's an insult to you as a profession
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > Several people specifically asked me for a fully moderated list. Then please ask these people to go look for a project that does not do crowdsourcing. You cannot fix an engine without getting oil on your hands, and you cannot reap the benefits of a crowdsourcing project without dealing with human beings. > At the same time, knowing this request and the reason for it, I > understood their concerns and wanted to let them know that this list, > unlike t...@openstreetmaup, would be monitored for behavior The decisive factor for me is: Will a message I write get through without you reading it before the others do, or will it not. Whether the community kick me out *afterwards* because I have written something that they don't like, that's another matter. But being pre-filtered (what you seem to call "fully moderated") is not acceptable, and I would even go so far as to say this is so much un-OSM that such a list should not be officially sanctioned by being hosted on OSM servers. Let people have their nice and cleansed community at Yahoo groups or on their own private mail servers but not at OSM. > 1) We don't say anything. We say "This is a new list" and then there > are arbitrary decisions about moderation, or kicking people off. I > don't think this is a friendly way to run a community. It is highly unlikely that an osm-professional list would even attract people you would want to kick. You haven't even started and already you are making rules about whom you want to kick out. Is this how you would define "a friendly way to run a community"? (Are you sure that the community needs to be "run"?) > 3) We don't do any moderation. Well, we have a list like this already > and it's been a problem for us, Stop. - Are you saying that osm-professional is intended as a copy of osm-talk just moderated? In that case, please rename it osm-talk-moderated and go ahead as planned. I was under the impression that you wanted to create a list aimed specifically at professional OSM users - which is not a list we already have. > Nothing I do is going to satisfy everyone's requirements, but this > list isn't about the existing OSM community as much as a new group of > folks who want to be gently introduced to the project. Working with > these people is valuable and the they've told me they need a safe > forum. Well these people surely haven't talked to me, or offered their opinion in any forum that I have been reading. Maybe we're just having a naming problem really. I thought that being a professional OSM service provider I should naturally be on that list. If you would select a name that makes it more clear that this is an entry-level safe forum for US newcomers rather than a mailing list for professional OSM users, that would then not give the impression of being the place where all the OSM professionals ought to be and I could safely ignore it ;-) Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Richard Welty wrote: > having run internet mailing lists for most of the past 30 years, i think > i have a good grasp of what Serge, Kate and Thea are planning to do. I don't know them personally. I believe they are decent and well-meaning people. However I think that they send out the wrong message, namely: "There is a real danger that folks on this list would not behave in a civilised manner if if we were not moderating." I simply do not want to be among those whose free speech needs to be moderated. I think that I conduct myself in a reasonably civilised manner without Serge, Kate and Thea helping me out. > the moderation they are after sounds like a light handed one, reminding > people that the tone of discussion is supposed to be professional. It is everyone's, including their's, right to remind everyone of manners. I just find it sad that they believe they have to cross-check whether or not people behave before allowing them to air their thoughts. I honestly do not believe that I would ever write something they would "moderate", but just *submitting* to such moderation would mean accepting that moderation is required which I thinks reflects very poorly on the professionalism we want to convey. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On 3/3/10 1:55 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Dave Hansen wrote: > >> Serge, it looks like there may be a bit of sensitivity with calling >> lists "moderated". Although I think it's fair to spell out the >> expectations: >> > I think there is no problem with suggesting a certain "style" for a list > and/or having something like a charta (what old style Usenet newsgroups > used to have). > > Having a list where members are trusted so little that their posts need > to be read by members of the osm-us board before being allowed through > is, however, not acceptable to me. > having run internet mailing lists for most of the past 30 years, i think i have a good grasp of what Serge, Kate and Thea are planning to do. moderating every posting is miserable, nobody wants to do that for any length of time. i have experimented with it on lists before, and it just doesn't work very well, you can't keep everyone happy and there will always be a few people ticked off at you. it's just no fun at all. the moderation they are after sounds like a light handed one, reminding people that the tone of discussion is supposed to be professional. i would imagine that they'll be asking people to use care with their language and avoid ad-hominem arguments. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:53 AM, SteveC wrote: > If we're throwing the 1st amendment out the door, can the moderators at least > post to the list when you decide something is not allowable on your > arbitrary(?) scale of bad speech, and why? Then we all have transparency. /me waits to see if I get moderated for 'disagreeing with Serge' :-) :-) :-) > > Yours &c. > > Steve > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: >>> On Wed, 2010-03-03 at 17:57 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: Serge Wroclawski wrote: > Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out > of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post > and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of > the reins a bit Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated list to be created ;-) >>> >>> If things ever got severely out of control on talk-us, I think I'd be OK >>> with switching the moderation bit on. >> >> Several people specifically asked me for a fully moderated list. >> >> Full moderation is all messages, all the time. >> >> I don't think that's either feasible or necessary. People can >> generally behave like adults. >> >> At the same time, knowing this request and the reason for it, I >> understood their concerns and wanted to let them know that this list, >> unlike t...@openstreetmaup, would be monitored for behavior And if >> something happens, there's the understanding that the list is >> moderated and so no one feels bad if all messages are moderated while >> things get sorted out. >> >> The alternatives appeal to me far less: >> >> 1) We don't say anything. We say "This is a new list" and then there >> are arbitrary decisions about moderation, or kicking people off. I >> don't think this is a friendly way to run a community. >> >> 2) We fully moderate the list, all the time. That's no good.. It just >> makes communication stilted. Even though it's what I was asked for, >> it's too burdensome. >> >> 3) We don't do any moderation. Well, we have a list like this already >> and it's been a problem for us, keeping us from making meaningful >> connections with other communities. Governments and child-friendly >> non-profits want some assurance that a list will be "safe", so this is >> what I'm trying to do. >> >> Nothing I do is going to satisfy everyone's requirements, but this >> list isn't about the existing OSM community as much as a new group of >> folks who want to be gently introduced to the project. Working with >> these people is valuable and the they've told me they need a safe >> forum. The list already brought in a large number of people and we're >> going to bring in various individuals and groups now, so as far as I'm >> concerned, it's been good... and nothing is going to be perfect at >> first either... so there's plenty of opportunity to learn. >> >> - Serge >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > Yours &c. Steve ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Dave Hansen wrote: > Serge, it looks like there may be a bit of sensitivity with calling > lists "moderated". Although I think it's fair to spell out the > expectations: I think there is no problem with suggesting a certain "style" for a list and/or having something like a charta (what old style Usenet newsgroups used to have). Having a list where members are trusted so little that their posts need to be read by members of the osm-us board before being allowed through is, however, not acceptable to me. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
If we're throwing the 1st amendment out the door, can the moderators at least post to the list when you decide something is not allowable on your arbitrary(?) scale of bad speech, and why? Then we all have transparency. Yours &c. Steve On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: >> On Wed, 2010-03-03 at 17:57 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: >>> Serge Wroclawski wrote: Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of the reins a bit >>> >>> Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not >>> one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated >>> list to be created ;-) >> >> If things ever got severely out of control on talk-us, I think I'd be OK >> with switching the moderation bit on. > > Several people specifically asked me for a fully moderated list. > > Full moderation is all messages, all the time. > > I don't think that's either feasible or necessary. People can > generally behave like adults. > > At the same time, knowing this request and the reason for it, I > understood their concerns and wanted to let them know that this list, > unlike t...@openstreetmaup, would be monitored for behavior And if > something happens, there's the understanding that the list is > moderated and so no one feels bad if all messages are moderated while > things get sorted out. > > The alternatives appeal to me far less: > > 1) We don't say anything. We say "This is a new list" and then there > are arbitrary decisions about moderation, or kicking people off. I > don't think this is a friendly way to run a community. > > 2) We fully moderate the list, all the time. That's no good.. It just > makes communication stilted. Even though it's what I was asked for, > it's too burdensome. > > 3) We don't do any moderation. Well, we have a list like this already > and it's been a problem for us, keeping us from making meaningful > connections with other communities. Governments and child-friendly > non-profits want some assurance that a list will be "safe", so this is > what I'm trying to do. > > Nothing I do is going to satisfy everyone's requirements, but this > list isn't about the existing OSM community as much as a new group of > folks who want to be gently introduced to the project. Working with > these people is valuable and the they've told me they need a safe > forum. The list already brought in a large number of people and we're > going to bring in various individuals and groups now, so as far as I'm > concerned, it's been good... and nothing is going to be perfect at > first either... so there's plenty of opportunity to learn. > > - Serge > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Dave, You're quite right that the word "moderated" has different connotations in a heterogeneous community. And both Serge and you have gone to great pains to spell out that moderation will be exercised *lightly* and (hopefully) infrequently. Thanks for your concrete and practical suggestions, as well as for fairly paraphrasing the delicate balance needed to support outreach to this important community. Cheers, SEJ "Wretches, utter wretches, keep your hands from beans." -Empedocles On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 12:11, Dave Hansen wrote: > On Wed, 2010-03-03 at 17:57 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Serge Wroclawski wrote: > > > Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out > > > of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post > > > and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of > > > the reins a bit > > > > Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not > > one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated > > list to be created ;-) > > If things ever got severely out of control on talk-us, I think I'd be OK > with switching the moderation bit on. But, I don't recall ever getting > *anywhere* close to doing that. Maybe with this thread. ;) > > Serge, it looks like there may be a bit of sensitivity with calling > lists "moderated". Although I think it's fair to spell out the > expectations: > > * The list's express purpose is to cater to those who wish to work on > or with OSM in a professional capacity > * Posters are expected to be welcoming to others, keep flamewars to a > minimum > > I think it's also fair to say that if there are people who are not being > welcoming to others that they will be asked to unsubscribe from the > list. It goes without saying on any list that if anyone misbehaves, > they'll get their moderation bit turned on. If that fails repeatedly, > then perhaps move to full moderation. > > I'd be much more apt to subscribe to a list like that than one which > starts out (and stays) moderated. > > -- Dave > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: > On Wed, 2010-03-03 at 17:57 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: >> Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> > Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out >> > of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post >> > and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of >> > the reins a bit >> >> Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not >> one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated >> list to be created ;-) > > If things ever got severely out of control on talk-us, I think I'd be OK > with switching the moderation bit on. Several people specifically asked me for a fully moderated list. Full moderation is all messages, all the time. I don't think that's either feasible or necessary. People can generally behave like adults. At the same time, knowing this request and the reason for it, I understood their concerns and wanted to let them know that this list, unlike t...@openstreetmaup, would be monitored for behavior And if something happens, there's the understanding that the list is moderated and so no one feels bad if all messages are moderated while things get sorted out. The alternatives appeal to me far less: 1) We don't say anything. We say "This is a new list" and then there are arbitrary decisions about moderation, or kicking people off. I don't think this is a friendly way to run a community. 2) We fully moderate the list, all the time. That's no good.. It just makes communication stilted. Even though it's what I was asked for, it's too burdensome. 3) We don't do any moderation. Well, we have a list like this already and it's been a problem for us, keeping us from making meaningful connections with other communities. Governments and child-friendly non-profits want some assurance that a list will be "safe", so this is what I'm trying to do. Nothing I do is going to satisfy everyone's requirements, but this list isn't about the existing OSM community as much as a new group of folks who want to be gently introduced to the project. Working with these people is valuable and the they've told me they need a safe forum. The list already brought in a large number of people and we're going to bring in various individuals and groups now, so as far as I'm concerned, it's been good... and nothing is going to be perfect at first either... so there's plenty of opportunity to learn. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Wed, 2010-03-03 at 17:57 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Serge Wroclawski wrote: > > Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out > > of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post > > and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of > > the reins a bit > > Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not > one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated > list to be created ;-) If things ever got severely out of control on talk-us, I think I'd be OK with switching the moderation bit on. But, I don't recall ever getting *anywhere* close to doing that. Maybe with this thread. ;) Serge, it looks like there may be a bit of sensitivity with calling lists "moderated". Although I think it's fair to spell out the expectations: * The list's express purpose is to cater to those who wish to work on or with OSM in a professional capacity * Posters are expected to be welcoming to others, keep flamewars to a minimum I think it's also fair to say that if there are people who are not being welcoming to others that they will be asked to unsubscribe from the list. It goes without saying on any list that if anyone misbehaves, they'll get their moderation bit turned on. If that fails repeatedly, then perhaps move to full moderation. I'd be much more apt to subscribe to a list like that than one which starts out (and stays) moderated. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Mar 3, 2010, at 9:57 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out >> of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post >> and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of >> the reins a bit > > Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not > one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated > list to be created ;-) +1 Moderation and control aren't really tenets of OSM. Yours &c. Steve ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out > of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post > and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of > the reins a bit Ok. I would like to be part of a professional OSM mailing list but not one that is moderated. I guess I'll just ask for a second, unmoderated list to be created ;-) Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Sam, As much as I would love to put on a three piece virtual suit and synergize the paradigm with everyone that is not the intent of the professional list. I can only speak for the United States in this regard, but we can't direct various government organizations and non-profits at the talk list. Groups have been put off by the talk list before. There is a growing group of local and state governments that want to interact with OSM. If we just say "sure join the talk list," we lose people who don't care for the kind of interaction that sometimes goes on there. Not everyone has the good humor to think "oh the talk list here they go again, isn't it cute." I like to think of the OSM professional list as a gateway drug to the community. Maybe nobody else thinks this is important, but I do know there are those that won't speak up as well. Kate user:wonderchook >> > > Dear Sir, > > I think it just means we should be putting on our business hats, and > use big words & throw in some technical 'buzz' words here & there, & > put on the virtual suit & tie, when using that list. > .. as the intended audience is from the 'corporate world'. > (so no :-) faces... and 'stuff' is needed). .. like a group of > hobbyists who want to totally change the playing field & disrupt a > century old industry of status-quo... > > Cheers, > (Kind regards,) > Sam > >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > What does semi-moderated mean, who will do this moderation, according to > what rules will he or she moderate, to whom will he or she be accountable in > case of disputes about his or her moderation, and does he or she have any > business interests of his or her own that might clash with the role of > moderation? It seems my reply to the list somehow got munged... so here it is again, rewritten from scratch. The current moderators are myself, Kate Chapman and Thea Clay. There are no explicit rules. If someone wants to be disruptive, they'll find a way to do it inside the rules. For example if I said "No namecalling", someone could say "Your idea is one only an idiot could make"- then it would fall under the rules. And then the list of rules would be pages and pages. Most people know what professional behavior is, and if things get out of hand, we'll talk to them. Semi-moderated means at first, all post and all people will be moderated. Over time, we'll probably get go of the reins a bit, but it also means that in case of a disagreement that flares up, one of the moderators might turn moderation on for every post at any time. The idea for the list is that it'll be a safe place for professionals and groups to join. @talk can be a bit too "raw". The joke I make to friends is "Let me show you some of the students from our prestigious learning institution" and then I take them to the men's locker room. As for potential business conflicts- I don't currently have any business conflicts. But we have several moderators and at some point, you just need trust us. It's not in anyone's interest to keep information away from the list. It's not as if this one list is the one and only communication channel, and it's in everyone's best interest for communication to be open. I hope that answers your questions. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> It'll also be a bit less free-form than this list. osm-professional >> will be semi-moderated > > What does semi-moderated mean, who will do this moderation, according to > what rules will he or she moderate, to whom will he or she be > accountable in case of disputes about his or her moderation, and does he > or she have any business interests of his or her own that might clash > with the role of moderation? > Dear Sir, I think it just means we should be putting on our business hats, and use big words & throw in some technical 'buzz' words here & there, & put on the virtual suit & tie, when using that list. .. as the intended audience is from the 'corporate world'. (so no :-) faces... and 'stuff' is needed). .. like a group of hobbyists who want to totally change the playing field & disrupt a century old industry of status-quo... Cheers, (Kind regards,) Sam > Bye > Frederik > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Hi, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > It'll also be a bit less free-form than this list. osm-professional > will be semi-moderated What does semi-moderated mean, who will do this moderation, according to what rules will he or she moderate, to whom will he or she be accountable in case of disputes about his or her moderation, and does he or she have any business interests of his or her own that might clash with the role of moderation? Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] New List: osm-professional
Based on some feedback I've received from people inside and outside the OSM community, I've created a new list: osm-professional: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osm-professional This list will be for discussions of OpenStreetMap in work. The initial area I see this useful in is governments looking to contribute data to OSM, but I've already been contacted by commercial interests looking at consuming OSM data, and so this list will be a good cleaninghouse for discussions on those issues. It'll also be a bit less free-form than this list. osm-professional will be semi-moderated and while talk can get a bit rowdy sometimes, the new list will be a bit more controlled. The list won't be US centric, but since it's an English-speaking list, I'd expect mostly folks from the US, Canada and the UK (though everyone is invited to join). If you're looking at using, or contributing to OSM in a professional context, please consider joining this new list. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
