Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2018-08-16 09:51, Daniel Koć wrote:

Hi,

I wanted to let you know about proposed change in tagging the name of 
USA and I seek for the feedback about it - see the proposition here:


https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63384 


There are arguments to be made for either name, but `name=United States` 
`official_name=United States of America` seems like a perfectly 
common-sense way to tag it.


I had always assumed it was tagged `name=United States of America` 
because of the vastness and blankness of this country in the 
openstreetmap-carto style at zoom level 3 in Web Mercator projection. 
(Canada needs a longer name, clearly.) But that would be mapping for the 
renderer, so by all means shorten it.


Some of the `name:*` tags on the U.S. relation seem to have taken after 
`name` by unnecessarily including the equivalent of "of America". For 
example, `name:es=Estados Unidos de América` and `name:fr=États-Unis 
d'Amérique`. By contrast, there are few `official_name:*` tags on the 
U.S. relation. These tags might need to be reviewed -- perhaps checked 
against Wikipedia article titles -- to ensure that they too follow 
common practice in the respective languages.


On 2018-08-16 10:33, Jack Burke wrote:
> I am opposed to this suggestion, because there are two countries called
> "United States" in North America: the United States of America, and the
> United States of Mexico.

To be pedantic, the official name in Spanish is "Estados Unidos 
Mexicanos", rather than "Estados Unidos de México". So the official 
English name is "United Mexican States", not "United States of Mexico".


Even if Venezuela hadn't changed its official name from "United States 
of Venezuela" (Estados Unidos de Venezuela), I'd still stick to "United 
States" for the U.S., because it wouldn't cause any confusion between 
the two countries. It would be very different if someone were to propose 
`name=America`, reasoning that it's the most common name.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 17.08.2018 o 03:50, OSM Volunteer stevea pisze:
> I agree with Kevin (and others) that adding "it is never incorrect to add it" 
> (can't hurt), usually helps and distinguishes Mexican states from the fifty 
> north of the Rio Grande (in some places). 

Brian Housel on the Slack US channel has noticed that "it will match
other every other map: Bing, Google, Apple, Mapbox, etc." This not
something I thought about myself, because I don't use these maps, but it
makes sense for me as strong proof that it's really THE common name of
this country for all the practical purposes.

I also think that it really can hurt to not follow tag definitions (and
intentions). That's why we have multiple "name*" tags family. People can
choose which version they prefer to use for their purposes and default
map style is just one possible use. If you want to have
official/political map, you can use official_name, with "United States
of America", to be perfectly sure and don't upset anyone. If you want
country names to not clutter the space or you want to show some other
data more prominently, you can use short_name, with just "USA". But when
you want just common names, you could use "name" tag containing "United
States". Using official name instead of common name is not the proper
solution in my view, rather kind of a hack.

Overall response for this proposition in last 5 days is favorable, but I
want to wait bit more to not act in hurry and give people a chance to
express any objections they might have.

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

otal amount of buildings created and still visible is 177,151, with
> a total of 1,980,336 nodes, in the general area "East of Washington DC,
> South of Baltimore, North of Chesapeake Beach".
> 
> I think these buildings need to be deleted too, given their technical
> (over-noding) and legal (we don't know where the data came from and what
> license it is under) issues.
> 
> However, given how much work the mapper claims to have invested in this,
> I wonder if there's maybe a way to salvage the data. That would first
> require us to clear up the legal situation, and if it turns out the
> source is legal, then we'd have to go about killing the extra nodes in
> buildings.
> 
> I'm basically looking for volunteers here. Other mappers have tried to
> discuss the issue with the mapper himself and never got far either, but
> of course if someone wanted to try and enlist annapolissailor's support,
> fair enough (perhaps agree here on the list who's doing it though, so
> that we don't have 10 people spamming him...)
> 
> I have prepared a file that contains all the buildings in question:
> 
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/annapolis.osm.gz
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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> -- 
> Elliott Plack
> http://elliottplack.me
> 
> 
> 
> From: Daniel Koć 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag
> Date: August 16, 2018 at 11:18:47 AM PDT
> To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> 
> 
> W dniu 16.08.2018 o 19:43, Volker Schmidt pisze:
> 
>> Looks somewhat strange to me in view of the preamble of the US Constitution:
>> " We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, 
>> establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common 
>> defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to 
>> ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for 
>> the United States of America. "
> 
> Could you tell in your words what is strange for you, so we could discuss 
> things in more specific way? 
> 
> -- 
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Daniel Koć 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag
> Date: August 16, 2018 at 11:51:07 AM PDT
> To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> 
> 
> W dniu 16.08.2018 o 19:33, Jack Burke pisze:
>> Yes, when people say "United States" they typically mean America and
>> not Mexico, but the USA is just as often referred to as "America" as
>> it is "United States," which is another reason not to proceed with the
>> change.
> 
> Hi, Jack!
> 
> I think that key word here is "common" - for me "typically mean America
> and not Mexico" is a clear example of common use.
> 
> English is a foreign language for me, but I have also never heard about
> "United States" in the meaning Mexico ("United Mexican States"), which
> makes this case stronger for me.
> 
> -- 
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Kevin Kenny 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag
> Date: August 16, 2018 at 2:51:46 PM PDT
> To: dan...@xn--ko-wla.pl
> Cc: talk-us 
> 
> 
> The Articles of Confederation included the text, "The Stile of this
> Confederation shall be the 'United States of America'"
> 
> The Constitution omits any declaration of the correct name and style,
> and in fact uses both styles, even in the Preamble. as Daniel Koć
> observes.
> 
> There are conspiracy theorists who assert that the two are different
> entities - they spout bizarre nonsense like
> http://supremelaw.org/letters/us-v-usa.htm and http://usavsus.info/ .
> (Ordinarily, these are the 'sovereign citizens' who believe that they
> can get out of paying their taxes if they come up with the correct
> magic words to invalidate the whole body of Federal law. They do not
> enjoy very much success in court, but that doesn't keep them from
> putting reams of material up on the Web.) Their usual contention is
> that the 'United States' is some sort of cabal or corporation that
> established the Constitution for the separate entity of the 'United
> States of America.'
> 
> In practice, it's simply brief writing. The phrase, 'of America,' is
> omitted when it is clear from the contex

Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Kevin Kenny]

The Articles of Confederation included the text, "The Stile of this
Confederation shall be the 'United States of America'"

The Constitution omits any declaration of the correct name and style,
and in fact uses both styles, even in the Preamble. as Daniel Koć
observes.

There are conspiracy theorists who assert that the two are different
entities - they spout bizarre nonsense like
http://supremelaw.org/letters/us-v-usa.htm and http://usavsus.info/ .
(Ordinarily, these are the 'sovereign citizens' who believe that they
can get out of paying their taxes if they come up with the correct
magic words to invalidate the whole body of Federal law. They do not
enjoy very much success in court, but that doesn't keep them from
putting reams of material up on the Web.) Their usual contention is
that the 'United States' is some sort of cabal or corporation that
established the Constitution for the separate entity of the 'United
States of America.'

In practice, it's simply brief writing. The phrase, 'of America,' is
omitted when it is clear from the context, but it is never incorrect
to add it.

More complex is whether the term is singular or plural. It was
reasonably consistent in the early days of the republic that one would
write, 'the United States ARE'. After the time of Reconstruction,
there was a much stronger identity as a nation, and it became
conventional to write, 'the United States IS.' There is a difference
there: the first refers to a collection of separate States, while the
second refers to a singular unified nation. Those who draft the laws
have followed the common speech, giving the conspiracy theorists more
ammunition in the claim that the 'United States' and 'the United
States of America' are separate entities.

Let's try not to throw any more fuel on that particular fire.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 2:33 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:
>
> W dniu 16.08.2018 o 19:43, Volker Schmidt pisze:
>
> Looks somewhat strange to me in view of the preamble of the US Constitution:
> " We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, 
> establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common 
> defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to 
> ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for 
> the United States of America. "
>
>
> Could you tell in your words what is strange for you, so we could discuss 
> things in more specific way?
>
> --
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 16.08.2018 o 19:33, Jack Burke pisze:
> Yes, when people say "United States" they typically mean America and
> not Mexico, but the USA is just as often referred to as "America" as
> it is "United States," which is another reason not to proceed with the
> change.

Hi, Jack!

I think that key word here is "common" - for me "typically mean America
and not Mexico" is a clear example of common use.

English is a foreign language for me, but I have also never heard about
"United States" in the meaning Mexico ("United Mexican States"), which
makes this case stronger for me.

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 16.08.2018 o 19:43, Volker Schmidt pisze:

> Looks somewhat strange to me in view of the preamble of the US
> Constitution:
> " We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
> Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
> common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings
> of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish
> this Constitution for the United States of America. "

Could you tell in your words what is strange for you, so we could
discuss things in more specific way?

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]

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[Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Volker Schmidt]

>
> I wanted to let you know about proposed change in tagging the name of
> USA and I seek for the feedback about it - see the proposition here:
>
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63384
>  openstreetmap.org%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fid%3D63384=3>
>
> Looks somewhat strange to me in view of the preamble of the US
Constitution:
" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of
Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
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Re: [Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Jack Burke]

I am opposed to this suggestion, because there are two countries called "United 
States" in North America: the United States of America, and the United States 
of Mexico.

Yes, when people say "United States" they typically mean America and not 
Mexico, but the USA is just as often referred to as "America" as it is "United 
States," which is another reason not to proceed with the change. 

-jack

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On August 16, 2018 12:51:27 PM EDT, "Daniel Koć"  wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I wanted to let you know about proposed change in tagging the name of
>USA and I seek for the feedback about it - see the proposition here:
>
>https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63384
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
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[Talk-us] Proposition for changing the common name tag

[Daniel Koć]

Hi,

I wanted to let you know about proposed change in tagging the name of
USA and I seek for the feedback about it - see the proposition here:

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63384





-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]

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