Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: emergency vehicles shouldn't be overriding this, usually these bridges really and truly are not usable. Drivers of emergency vehicles shouldn't be using OSM for routing purposes. And people who don't know the area where they are driving shouldn't be driving emergency vehicles. Certainly not people who don't even know what bridges are safe to drive on! I don't know how it in other jurisdictions, but no one was allowed to drive the ambulance or fire truck where I volunteered until they filled out a blank map with all the street names. In our jurisdiction, we have 370,000 roads and 800+ bridges. We basically use a whole bunch of radio dispatchers looking at live edited maps for routing. Just building a routing network has been a massive undertaking (and, unfortunately, OSM is nowhere close to sufficient in our area right now). Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: In our jurisdiction, we have 370,000 roads and 800+ bridges. We basically use a whole bunch of radio dispatchers looking at live edited maps for routing. Just building a routing network has been a massive undertaking (and, unfortunately, OSM is nowhere close to sufficient in our area right now). So, GPS devices in the vehicles, which relay location to the radio dispatcher, and then the radio dispatcher relays the routing info back over the radio? Sounds pretty awesome. Must be manpower-intensive, though? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
We have other adaptations too. For example, we are one of the few departments that does a dispatch by beat instead of a dispatch by nearest vehicle. This way, officers have specific beats that they will be responding too; and we make a detailed street map of each beat available in car on their mobile data terminals. We dispatch somewhere around 30 agencies in addition to our own, so we have a very large amount of dispatchers on hand at any given time. We do not dispatch fire, which makes dispatcher duties less complex. We also have standardized routing books that we publish every year and a dispatching system that lets us put in live alerting for specific hazards. Interestingly enough, most dispatchers rarely, if ever, look at a map during their shift. They instead explore the alerts and other information via a command line interface only. Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- From: dipie...@gmail.com [mailto:dipie...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 8:50 AM To: Lord-Castillo, Brett Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing? On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: In our jurisdiction, we have 370,000 roads and 800+ bridges. We basically use a whole bunch of radio dispatchers looking at live edited maps for routing. Just building a routing network has been a massive undertaking (and, unfortunately, OSM is nowhere close to sufficient in our area right now). So, GPS devices in the vehicles, which relay location to the radio dispatcher, and then the radio dispatcher relays the routing info back over the radio? Sounds pretty awesome. Must be manpower-intensive, though? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think people want to use this as a this is your route and you must follow it. The idea would be that (a) dispatchers and emergency drivers could use the map and suggested route to give a better estimate on arrival time to first responders and (b) drivers could use it while driving to be reminded of existing emergency-only routes. Right. That's what I said sounds like a terrible idea. You really think drivers could use it while driving? Or did you mean that non-drivers could relay it to drivers? This would be MUCH better than what happens right now: a call to 911 goes in, depending on the jurisdiction the dispatcher either uses (a) Google Maps, (b) the county road data or (c) custom ESRI-based maps to look for the best unit to request a response. This particular guy (a driver in an ambulance) whips out his Garmin Nuvi GPS and enters the lat/lon or address and heads out. How do you know what happens right now, beyond the experience of one individual driver? And why would OSM be better than a customized system built specifically for the intended use? The point is that even if everyone has all the roads in their jurisdiction memorized (and nowadays with consolidation and huge coverage areas that's harder to do) and has previously spent the $$$ on E-911 systems and map upgrades, not everyone is on the same page and if there's something we can do to help, why not do it? I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there's something you can do to help, and/or that that something has anything to do with using OSM data for routing. At least talk to a chief, and/or to someone on the dispatch side of things who has the power to completely rewrite the dispatch procedures. I suspect OSMers probably could provide some help to some jurisdictions, at least on the dispatch side of things. And on the at the scene side of things, there are definitely things that can be done in the non-routing realm. Fire hydrant / standpipe locations, pressure information, number (and in some jurisdictions, type) of hookups. Of course, much of the information that needs to be integrated into such a system is probably too private for OSM: floor plans, contact information, hazardous materials information, special needs of particular individuals. And even the parts that *are* suitable for OSM would only be useful if they were maintained by someone local who kept them up to date. This is true of routing information as well, but I think OSM is a long long way from even being a contender for use for real-time emergency routing. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: The point is that even if everyone has all the roads in their jurisdiction memorized (and nowadays with consolidation and huge coverage areas that's harder to do) and has previously spent the $$$ on E-911 systems and map upgrades, not everyone is on the same page and if there's something we can do to help, why not do it? I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there's something you can do to help, and/or that that something has anything to do with using OSM data for routing. Thinking about this a little more, probably the number one thing OSM mappers could do to help is to release their data into the public domain. This way, companies could integrate it into the proprietary systems they're already providing to the emergency services, without having to drastically change their business model. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On 06/02/2011 07:17 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Hi all, Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? I've found someone on reddit who is interested in loading their Garmin with routable data so they can more-quickly get to their destination. Apparently their jurisdiction doesn't have that information available to them (and the dispatchers don't always, either). Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? How about routers that take into account emergency turnarounds, service roads, passing through stop lights and signs, etc.? emergency=* is the emergency vehicle access tag. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? Sounds like a really terrible idea. Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? access=no ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On 6/3/11 8:51 PM, Anthony wrote: On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Ian Deesian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? Sounds like a really terrible idea. Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? access=no access=emergency is preferable for at least one reason i can think of: if a bridge is closed as unsafe, but hasn't been taken down, access=no would be the natural way to indicate that. emergency vehicles shouldn't be overriding this, usually these bridges really and truly are not usable. i can name a couple of examples of closed bridges in upstate NY right this instant. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 6/3/11 8:51 PM, Anthony wrote: On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Ian Deesian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? Sounds like a really terrible idea. Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? access=no access=emergency is preferable for at least one reason i can think of: if a bridge is closed as unsafe, but hasn't been taken down, access=no would be the natural way to indicate that. Right, because access tags don't describe the safety of the road, only the access permissions. emergency vehicles shouldn't be overriding this, usually these bridges really and truly are not usable. Drivers of emergency vehicles shouldn't be using OSM for routing purposes. And people who don't know the area where they are driving shouldn't be driving emergency vehicles. Certainly not people who don't even know what bridges are safe to drive on! I don't know how it in other jurisdictions, but no one was allowed to drive the ambulance or fire truck where I volunteered until they filled out a blank map with all the street names. What if a bridge is safe for a car, but not for a truck? What if it's safe for a truck, but not for rush hour traffic? What if a road is safe for any vehicles but is too bumpy for an ambulance? Or what if it's too bumpy for an ambulance, but will do if there's absolutely no other route? There are far too many possibilities to try to do this in an automated fashion. Drivers of emergency vehicles need to know the places where they drive better than the mapping software. There's no safe way around this. Maybe, when OSM is much more advanced than it already is, data from it can be used in an *interactive* mode to *suggest* routes to meet strange scenarios (how do I get from A to B when the bridge from A to B just collapsed). But ignoring all access=no tags probably wouldn't be a good idea then. I sure hope this person on reddit has talked to his supervisor about his plan to use a Garmin to help them get to their destination. And I sure hope he doesn't work where I live. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: emergency vehicles shouldn't be overriding this, usually these bridges really and truly are not usable. [...] Drivers of emergency vehicles need to know the places where they drive better than the mapping software. There's no safe way around this. Maybe, when OSM is much more advanced than it already is, data from it can be used in an *interactive* mode to *suggest* routes to meet strange scenarios (how do I get from A to B when the bridge from A to B just collapsed). But ignoring all access=no tags probably wouldn't be a good idea then. I don't think people want to use this as a this is your route and you must follow it. The idea would be that (a) dispatchers and emergency drivers could use the map and suggested route to give a better estimate on arrival time to first responders and (b) drivers could use it while driving to be reminded of existing emergency-only routes. This would be MUCH better than what happens right now: a call to 911 goes in, depending on the jurisdiction the dispatcher either uses (a) Google Maps, (b) the county road data or (c) custom ESRI-based maps to look for the best unit to request a response. This particular guy (a driver in an ambulance) whips out his Garmin Nuvi GPS and enters the lat/lon or address and heads out. The point is that even if everyone has all the roads in their jurisdiction memorized (and nowadays with consolidation and huge coverage areas that's harder to do) and has previously spent the $$$ on E-911 systems and map upgrades, not everyone is on the same page and if there's something we can do to help, why not do it? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
Hi all, Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? I've found someone on reddit who is interested in loading their Garmin with routable data so they can more-quickly get to their destination. Apparently their jurisdiction doesn't have that information available to them (and the dispatchers don't always, either). Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? How about routers that take into account emergency turnarounds, service roads, passing through stop lights and signs, etc.? -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Using OSM for emergency routing?
On 6/2/11 10:17 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Hi all, Has anyone used OSM for emergency routing with squad cars or ambulances? I've found someone on reddit who is interested in loading their Garmin with routable data so they can more-quickly get to their destination. Apparently their jurisdiction doesn't have that information available to them (and the dispatchers don't always, either). Are there any existing tags to specify emergency-only roads? How about routers that take into account emergency turnarounds, service roads, passing through stop lights and signs, etc.? access=emergency is what i've been using for turns on motorways that are only for use by police, fire, etc. don't know about tweaking routers to account for it, though. you'd need to have a flag on mkgmap to produce an emergency version of the map that accounts for all these things if you wanted it in a garmin. finally, access=emergency isn't consistently used (yet.) richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
