Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
This is in progress, and taking forever (I about 10,000 ways in all). Apparently uploading large changesets with JOSM takes a long time. Not sure if it's JOSM or the server. Worse, I started to upload some changes (using 1000 size chunks as JOSM couldn't handle it all at once), but it took forever and didn't look like it was making progress so I canceled it. Well apparently the server got the changes and posted them so when I tried again I got a conflict. ... and than after trying various things which I won't go into I got things going again, this time using 100 size chunks so at least I know its making progress. Moral of the story, when uploading a large changeset with JOSM use small chunks (like 100) or be very very patient. BTW: I also looked into using an upload script, but the only one I could find that would do what I want with the new API (0.6) requires python 3 which I don't have installed (there is a python 2 version, but that failed with a syntax error). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
It's the API not JOSM. You have to be patient. On 5 Aug 2010, at 24:40 , Kevin Atkinson wrote: This is in progress, and taking forever (I about 10,000 ways in all). Apparently uploading large changesets with JOSM takes a long time. Not sure if it's JOSM or the server. Worse, I started to upload some changes (using 1000 size chunks as JOSM couldn't handle it all at once), but it took forever and didn't look like it was making progress so I canceled it. Well apparently the server got the changes and posted them so when I tried again I got a conflict. ... and than after trying various things which I won't go into I got things going again, this time using 100 size chunks so at least I know its making progress. Moral of the story, when uploading a large changeset with JOSM use small chunks (like 100) or be very very patient. BTW: I also looked into using an upload script, but the only one I could find that would do what I want with the new API (0.6) requires python 3 which I don't have installed (there is a python 2 version, but that failed with a syntax error). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
I'm afraid we've veered way off topic here. There were three topics and I'd like to close one of them (or spin it off) and discuss the other two. Topic 3 (the unimportant one): Periods are AFAIK, valid in OSM. We don't care about the underlying implementation, whether it's Postgres or Mongo or anything else. We communicate to an API and the API says what is and isn't valid. For you CS people, that's why we have APIs and separation of concerns. :) I'm happy to discuss this with folks (as I've looked into this a bit) but I'd love if we dropped it from this thread. Topic 1: Is this proposed mass-change something good for Salt Lake City. That is does it fit in with the way locals name the streets. This seemed to get lost somewhere in the discussion but is the most important thing about this change. A rule of thumb is if you're thinking of doing something like this, announce it and wait 10 days for feedback. 10 days is just long enough to be frustrating, and gives people time to give useful feedback. Of course I'm not the king of OSM, but that's just something I recommend Topic 2: Bots and Imports I don't know why we in the US love bots and imports so much. I admit their utility, but we have to be really careful about them. What do people think of a something like A friendly guide to bots and imports? - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
BTW: In case you missed it I already did the initial upload. But there is always room to fix things up. On Thu, 5 Aug 2010, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Is this proposed mass-change something good for Salt Lake City. That is does it fit in with the way locals name the streets. This seemed to get lost somewhere in the discussion but is the most important thing about this change. Yes it does, and also how they are signed. The rest is for another thread. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
So the upload went well, there is still a lot that can be done but this a good first start. I am going to fix up the script so that it can run repeatably on the same area to allow it to further be refined. Maybe I make the source available, but it only really should be used in areas that use a Salt Lake City style grid system. If anyone wan't me to run it on other areas just let me know. It will only fix streets on a single grid system so its pretty safe to run without steeping on anyone else's toes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
I'm almost done with this script. It's not a full bot, but instead modifies an osm file which I will read back into JOSM and upload the changed parts (or if that doesn't work use one of the upload scripts). Changes in what It will do noted below. On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Salt Lake City street names are a bit of a mess. They are often several redundant names: name = South 900 East name_1 = 900 East name_2 = South 900 East (an extra space) and sometimes: name_3 = 9th East I would like to write a bot (or semi-automated plugin for JOSM) to clean up Sale Lake City Street Names so that they follow the following convention: 1) The name tag shall include the primary street name as signed, _without_ the directional prefix, but with the direction (really part of the street name and not a suffix) spelled out, for example 900 East. The street signs do not generally include the directional prefix, and the prefix is generally not considered part of the name. They are only used when forming an address. Unchanged. I know the prefix may make forming addresses easier, but they are _not_ part of the name and _not_ signed that way in Salt Lake City, so I am removing the prefix. Also, most printed maps _do not_ include the prefix. 2) A new tag name_prefix, shall contain the directional prefix as one of N, S, E, or W. (I will document this tag on the wiki) Changed to name.prefix after noticing a proposal to use the . to specify prop. of a tag. This will be very easy to fix if a different convention is agreed upon. 3) The alt_name tag shall include the full name with prefix, for example South 900 East. This is primary to aid the name finder, I'm assuming it won't get displayed on the map. This is now name.full 4) The loc_name tag shall the #th name (ie 9th East) when the street is a multiple of 100, as that form of the name is also very commonly used. Unchanged. 5) The name_1 tag shell include the other signed named for a street (for example Broadway for 300 South) when one exists. 6) The alt_name_* tags shall include any other names found in the name_* tags which I can't make sense of. These can be hand checked later. I'm not going to do this. Instead I am going to simply remove variants on name (for example all other names in the 900 East example). And than leave all other name_* and *_name alone (i.e. name_1, alt_name, etc). When the alternate name is a numbered street, it will get the .prefix and .full tags. For example: name: Lorna Circle name_1: 3805 South name_1.prefix: W name_1.full: West 3805 South ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: I'm almost done with this script. It's not a full bot, but instead modifies an osm file which I will read back into JOSM and upload the changed parts (or if that doesn't work use one of the upload scripts). Changes in what It will do noted below. [ ... ] I'm not going to do this. Instead I am going to simply remove variants on name (for example all other names in the 900 East example). And than leave all other name_* and *_name alone (i.e. name_1, alt_name, etc). When the alternate name is a numbered street, it will get the .prefix and .full tags. For example: name: Lorna Circle name_1: 3805 South name_1.prefix: W name_1.full: West 3805 South Whoa. Are you considering adding a period . to the key? Might that mess up postgres? From http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/static/sql-syntax-lexical.html The period (.) is used in numeric constants, and to separate schema, table, and column names. Perhaps bounce some of these ideas around on dev? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: I'm almost done with this script. It's not a full bot, but instead modifies an osm file which I will read back into JOSM and upload the changed parts (or if that doesn't work use one of the upload scripts). Changes in what It will do noted below. [ ... ] I'm not going to do this. Instead I am going to simply remove variants on name (for example all other names in the 900 East example). And than leave all other name_* and *_name alone (i.e. name_1, alt_name, etc). When the alternate name is a numbered street, it will get the .prefix and .full tags. For example: name: Lorna Circle name_1: 3805 South name_1.prefix: W name_1.full: West 3805 South Whoa. Are you considering adding a period . to the key? Might that mess up postgres? From http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/static/sql-syntax-lexical.html The period (.) is used in numeric constants, and to separate schema, table, and column names. Perhaps bounce some of these ideas around on dev? I imagine the Ruby code is doing the proper escaping for text like this, but you're right: definitely worth a message to the dev list. Not that it matters too much to the majority of the OSM community, but a period in the key name is invalid for most NoSQL-based systems (MongoDB in particular). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Richard Weait wrote: Whoa. Are you considering adding a period . to the key? Might that mess up postgres? From http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/static/sql-syntax-lexical.html The period (.) is used in numeric constants, and to separate schema, table, and column names. Perhaps bounce some of these ideas around on dev? I just asked and it won't create a problem anywhere. But, . is never used anywhere. So for now I am going to use ':' instead. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Val Kartchner wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-03 at 14:05 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: I'm almost done with this script. It's not a full bot, but instead modifies an osm file which I will read back into JOSM and upload the changed parts (or if that doesn't work use one of the upload scripts). Changes in what It will do noted below. Go ahead and finish the script, but don't run it until we get a consensus here. No one really objected that strongly and I am specially limited the scope of what it does. I plan to run it tomorrow unless I get some strong objections. The only slightly controversial part might be the removal of the directional prefix. But this is very easy to undue. 6) The alt_name_* tags shall include any other names found in the name_* tags which I can't make sense of. These can be hand checked later. I'm not going to do this. Instead I am going to simply remove variants on name (for example all other names in the 900 East example). And than leave all other name_* and *_name alone (i.e. name_1, alt_name, etc). When the alternate name is a numbered street, it will get the .prefix and .full tags. For example: name: Lorna Circle name_1: 3805 South name_1.prefix: W name_1.full: West 3805 South Here is an instance where there are several names for a street: Antelope Drive is also 1700 South. East of 2000 West it is also State Highway 108, and west it is State Highway 127. Also, through Syracuse it is signed as Syracuse Road. (I'm still investigating the signs to see exactly what portions should be so labeled.) This means that some sort of numbered alternatives need to be in the OSM database. So, which set of tags do we use: name_* or alt_name_*? Whichever it is, it needs to be standardized. This should be done worldwide. As I was trying to get at, my script specially does not address this. I leave the name tags alone for the most part. I saw a lot of this in the data I was working with and most of it will require manual cleanup. Perhaps a more specific example of what it does would help. Something is clearly wrong with this tagging. But since i don't know what to do with out I just clean it up a little. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/10128991 IN: name: South 6130 West name_1: South 2nd West name_2: South 200 West OUT: name: 6130 West name:prefix: S name:full: South 6130 West name_1: 200 West name_1:prefix: S name_1:full: South 200 West Notice how name_2 is gone, as that is redundant. To really fix it the way most likely it needs to be split in two. Here is another mess: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/10140212 IN: name: East Ninth South Circle name_1: 9th South Circle name_2: East 900 South name_3: East 9th South name_4: East 900 South OUT: name: East Ninth South Circle name_1: 9th South Circle name_2: 900 South name_2:prefix: E name_2:full: East 900 South So here, more could be done, but that can always be cleaned up better later. And finally here is a nice clean case: IN: name: East 900 South name_1: East 900 South name_2: East 9th South OUT: name: 900 South name:prefix: E name:full: East 900 South loc_name: 9th South ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
Salt Lake City street names are a bit of a mess. They are often several redundant names: name = South 900 East name_1 = 900 East name_2 = South 900 East (an extra space) and sometimes: name_3 = 9th East I would like to write a bot (or semi-automated plugin for JOSM) to clean up Sale Lake City Street Names so that they follow the following convention: 1) The name tag shall include the primary street name as signed, _without_ the directional prefix, but with the direction (really part of the street name and not a suffix) spelled out, for example 900 East. The street signs do not generally include the directional prefix, and the prefix is generally not considered part of the name. They are only used when forming an address. 2) A new tag name_prefix, shall contain the directional prefix as one of N, S, E, or W. (I will document this tag on the wiki) 3) The alt_name tag shall include the full name with prefix, for example South 900 East. This is primary to aid the name finder, I'm assuming it won't get displayed on the map. 4) The loc_name tag shall the #th name (ie 9th East) when the street is a multiple of 100, as that form of the name is also very commonly used. 5) The name_1 tag shell include the other signed named for a street (for example Broadway for 300 South) when one exists. 6) The alt_name_* tags shall include any other names found in the name_* tags which I can't make sense of. These can be hand checked later. Thoughts? I am only going to run my bot on the streets under the salt lake city grid system, but can run it on other areas by request. In addition I will make the source code available. Notes: I am new here, but I read over the thread Street Naming Conventions and wish to stay out of that debate. Several people have systemically expanded all abbreviations of street names in Salt Lake City. I am not going to change them back to the abbreviated form. I have looked at: http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html, and from that have some specific recommendations on handling directional prefixes and suffixes that I can go into later if desired. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: Is there a reason you replied privately? May I forward your post to the list? On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: In presume you live in Salt Lake City? Yes I do. I don't live in Utah, but my experience during my travels has been that streets are generally signed like S 900 E. Not in salt lake city. All cities in Utah (that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post). In the above example, there is probably also a N 900 E. If move the S or South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation. There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road. North becomes South when it crosses South Template. The only ambiguous situation is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is 333 S 900 E. Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address. In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix. It is only really found on online maps. If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would contend that it is a different road, at least name wise. The road name does not really change. The directional prefix is not really part of the road name, it is not signed that way. When someone asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 9th East), you will not include the directional prefix. Wash DC has a different four quadrant grid system. 14 St NW becomes 14 St SW when it crosses Constitution Ave. I don't think anyone would suggest changing it to 14 St W and moving the N or S to the address. Washington DC, uses a different system, and is a separate case. I think putting the first directional in with the address makes handling the address more difficult. When finding a numeric address it is just a matter of comparison, 850 is between 800 and 900. Typically anything that follows the address, e.g. Suite B, just makes the address more specific, it does not mean the location is on the other side of town. Yes it does, slightly. Which is why online maps probably include it. It simplifies forming the address. You simply combine a number with the street names. But a full address is more complicated than that. See http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html Also see http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/pub28c2.html (section 233) The directional prefix (especially when spelled out) in my view just adds noise to the map. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Sat, 2010-07-31 at 16:34 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: All cities in Utah (that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post). In the above example, there is probably also a N 900 E. If move the S or South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation. There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road. North becomes South when it crosses South Template. The only ambiguous situation is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is 333 S 900 E. Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address. In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix. It is only really found on online maps. If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would contend that it is a different road, at least name wise. The road name does not really change. The directional prefix is not really part of the road name, it is not signed that way. When someone asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 9th East), you will not include the directional prefix. In Salt Lake City, South Temple is 0 N/S and Main Street is 0 E/W. Though the Avenues District changes the normal grid layout. While Ogden (Utah) is laid out in a grid, it is somewhat different. In Ogden, Wall Avenue is 100 E/W and North Street is 100 N/S. Also, east and south direction prefixes are assumed if none is given. So 3725 Washington is really 3725 South Washington Boulevard, and 350 25th is 350 East 25th Street. If/when you run your script on Ogden (which I'd like), you'll have to take this directional assumption into account. However, we come to the problem of tagging as the street signs say (as the wiki says with abbreviations expanded), or tagging for address look-up (which I've only seen Cloud Made make available). When tagging for alternate names, do we use name, name_1, name_2, name_3, etc, or name, alt_name. Note: Some streets that I've corrected tags on legitimately have six name tags. For instance: Washington Boulevard, South Washington Boulevard, 400 East, South 400 East, 400 East Street, South 400 East Street, US-89, though the last one I've put in the ref tag. (However, it would be legitimate to give an address like 3750 South US-89 and it would get there. When US-89 splits off from Washington Boulevard, it is fully spelled out as United States Highway 89.) If you don't want all of the variations put in some sort of name tag, then develop a standard way of conveying the same information. - Val - ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
