Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 19:36 -0600, Alex Mauer wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: I'm pretty sure I know one when I see one these days. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features A restricted access major divided highway, normally with 2 or more running lanes plus emergency hard shoulder. Equivalent to the Freeway, Autobahn etc.. Bingo. It's truly restricted access. No access except from onramps. It's divided. It also has emergency shoulders. Is is effectively an interstate. There are many roads that fit those definitions, but have, for example, too-sharp curves, too-low bridges, perhaps too-narrow shoulders, etc. to meet the legal definition of an interstate. Of course, it's very possible that they've simply not been designated as Interstate, but my point is that it's not easy to tell at a glance. Yep, you're probably right. So, go submit a proposal and get the motorway definition changed. Right now, I'm following it to the letter. It doesn't matter that motorway!=interstate. It's easy to tell an interstate from its name anyway. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 23:23 -0500, Bone Killian wrote: certainly a highway that meets the standards without being designated should be tagged as motorway, but as IMHO the only thing that qualifies a road as a motorway (in the US) is the big red and blue signage identifying it as part of the interstate highway system. Have you actually read the highway definition on the map features page? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features It has zero to do with shiny red signs. :) In fact, there are even stretches of interstate in this country which aren't technically motorways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_93 : I-93 passes through Franconia Notch State Park as a Super-2 parkway, the only instance of a two-lane Interstate highway in the United States. This stretch carries a 45 mile per hour speed limit. For the trip through Franconia Notch, I-93 and U.S. Route 3 run concurrently. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Alex Mauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know from the history of OSM unclassified and residential are basically the same, and they render the same in pretty much every renderer. I believe it's a historical artifact where residential pretty much meant unclassified+abutters=residential. Hmm... Then why are all the generic roads from TIGER marked as residential? The first part of your description of unclassified seems to fit there, as well: urban commercial district or rural low-density housing... I suppose we differ in that I feel that tertiary can scale: in a residential area, it's the main roads with fewer driveways, in a commercial or industrial area, it's the main roads as well, and in rural areas it's main roads which are not county highways. I think it's not so good to make the tertiary tag cover all those cases. As you've described it, in a residential neighborhood, that road is generally 25 MPH, in a commercial or industrial area it's usually 35 MPH, and in a rural area, 40-55 MPH. I think only last one makes sense. Other roads change speed as they enter urban places (e.g. primary roads may go from 55 down to 25 to pass through a hamlet) Why shouldn't tertiary be the same? It's all about the relative status of a road to the roads around it. But the residential road is slow for its entire length, whereas your hamlet example is only slow while in the town. I would not use direct driveway access as a factor for distinguishing highways. Roads of all classifications except motorway may have direct driveway access, especially in rural areas. It's just a guideline, and it goes toward expectations. Driving down a residential street, I expect to have to watch carefully for kids playing or for drivers backing out. I realize that almost any road can have direct driveway access, but it's very infrequent (more like every 1/4 mile at least, not every 100 feet as in a residential neighborhood). On a more heavily-traveled road with a higher speed limit, the driver pulling out has to be more careful than the through traffic. Hmm...it seems to me that perhaps you're writing this from a perspective of what a driver using the road might expect, while I'm coming from a perspective of how should this road be tagged. Is that the case? How should this road be tagged needs to consider the expectations of a driver/bicyclist/pedestrian. I've always been uncomfortable with the if it looks like a motorway, then tag it as such for a couple reasons. First, does it meet the standards for a motorway in terms of height restrictions, turn radius, restricted access, etc. Second, over what distance are you going to consider the road characteristics? Part of my commute route follows a state highway that looks like a motorway in isolated sections--dual carriageway, 60 MPH, restricted access, etc., but it has stoplights at grade intersections every mile or so, sometimes more often. Also, if you continue on the road, it peters out into a 2-lane highway with slow tourists and grinds through pedestrian-clogged tourist-trap towns. Not a motorway. Karl ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
Maybe (by way of compromise) we should use two different tags, one that describes the physical characteristics of the road, and one that describes the administrative status of the road? highway=motorway admin=interstate_highway name=Interstate 880 Yes, excellent idea! That is a great way to handle both aspects of it. - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
For instance, OR217 and US26 west of Portland are both divided, multi-lane, limited access highways. Despite not being interstates, they *ARE* motorways. Hmm, are you sure? maybe they just look like motorways; there are a lot of almost-motorway roads Hmm. I'm confused by that. I don't quite understand what it would mean for something to just look like a motorway but not be one. As far as I can tell, this is an open community project, and terms have to be defined by the group to be useful. There is no US Department of Transportation statement declaring what kind of road qualifies as a motorway, nor what kind doesn't. So we need to muddle through it ourselves. There are an awful lot of people in the US who recognize what a freeway is, regardless of whether they know which bureaucrat signs the check for the little bumpy dots between the lanes. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we should call it a duck. If it is high-speed multi-lane restricted access way with cloverleaf entrances, we should call it a motorway. Regardless of whether it is part of the US Interstate Highway system or not. I hope I don't sound confrontational. Are we saying the same thing? I've definitely been pondering this myself as to how to classify or judge these tags. Good discussion. - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
On Fri, 2008-02-29 at 11:02 -0600, Alex Mauer wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: For instance, OR217 and US26 west of Portland are both divided, multi-lane, limited access highways. Despite not being interstates, they *ARE* motorways. Hmm, are you sure? maybe they just look like motorways; there are a lot of almost-motorway roads I'm pretty sure I know one when I see one these days. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features A restricted access major divided highway, normally with 2 or more running lanes plus emergency hard shoulder. Equivalent to the Freeway, Autobahn etc.. Bingo. It's truly restricted access. No access except from onramps. It's divided. It also has emergency shoulders. Is is effectively an interstate. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
Karl Newman wrote: Agreed. The criteria listed on the Wiki page promote too many highways to motorways. It's too hard to distinguish between them; in dense urban areas you could end up with a lot of motorways. It seems to me the motorway tag should be reserved for interstates, with some exceptions for major US highways. You left out tertiary from your descriptions. I would see tertiary as an important thoroughfare road through a town--higher speeds and less traffic controls than unclassified. How about these guidelines, based on speed limits and lanes: * motorway: Interstate, 2+ travel lanes, ramp access only, speed limit 65 MPH+ * trunk: US highway, 2+ travel lanes, ramp access only, speed limit 60-70 MPH * primary: US highway, 1-2 travel lanes, or State highway, 2 travel lanes, speed limit 55-65 MPH, can have occasional stoplights/traffic controls * secondary: State highway, 1-2 travel lanes, or larger county highway, speed limit 45-55 MPH * tertiary: County highway, other unnumbered thoroughfare, speed limit 40-50 MPH * unclassified: urban commercial district or rural low-density housing, normally no direct driveway access to housing in urban or suburban areas, speed limit 30-40 MPH * missing_tag: It seems like there needs to be another classification for residential branch roads which are main roads through subdivisions but still have direct driveway access to housing. * residential: urban or suburban roads primarily for providing access to housing, speed limit 15-25 MPH I agree, with the modification that trunk doesn't need to be ramp access only, and that county highways are secondary. I've used tertiary for the missing_tag you describe, as this seems to be in line with the European tertiary roads. (these comments are also on the wiki, I believe. -Alex Mauer hawke ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 20:18 -0600, Ian Dees wrote: I have a hard time deciding which value to use based on the UK-centric descriptions on the wiki. They're not hard and fast rules, honestly. You also can't completely say all (US/State/County) highways are primary/secondary/tertiary, etc... For instance, OR217 and US26 west of Portland are both divided, multi-lane, limited access highways. Despite not being interstates, they *ARE* motorways. As for primary/secondary/tertiary. I basically think that primaries are those really big roads that happen once every mile or two. They're the ones where WalMart is. :) -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway tags in the US
Karl Newman wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/United_States_roads_tagging or This one can be disregarded, I wrote it as one of the first guides for the purpose. Perhaps someone should update it to match the others. here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapping/Features/Road or This is newer, also initially written by me, and reflects how I tag as well as the method used on the TIGER import. here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:highway or here: This one is fairly consistent with that as well. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway_tag_usage or here: This one includes the fantasy that the highway tag represents physical attributes, so I'd be disinclined to follow it. However, below that (In the International equivalence section) the portion on the US is consistent with the others. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:Highway_tag_usage (that's where I put my proposal, username Si liconFiend) This is consistent with the others as well. In conclusion, the first link is crap, and all the others are fine. -Alex Mauer hawke ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] highway tags in the US
Hi again list, Has someone decided how the American road types should be mapped to the OpenStreetMap highway tag values? There are quite a few roads that are incorrectly marked as secondary or primary by the TIGER importer, and I'd like to make sure that I'm picking the correct highway value for the remapped strings. I have a hard time deciding which value to use based on the UK-centric descriptions on the wiki. If not, I'd be happy to go out and take some pictures of the various road types I see and put them up on the wiki somewhere so that us American OSM-ers can have something to work off of. -Ian ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-us
