Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
We classify siren maps as homeland security information, just like pipelines, following the precedent from the Santa Clara County case. They are not part of the publically available datasets for St Louis County: http://www.stlouisco.com/plan/gis/spatial_data.html I cannot specify precisely why, but there is a good chance that another grassroots siren mapping project was conducted locally for the purpose of data-gathering for a siren hack attempt. Like pipelines and security perimeters, it is one of those areas that may not be that wise to map in an organized way in the United States unless you coordinate a little with local emergency management agencies. Is our agency going to do anything about it if mapping sirens is the OSM project of the week? No. But another agency who finds out about the project and has no idea what OSM is and has no notice from a local mapping that they are mapping out all the sirens on the ground for OSM might not be so friendly to that local mapping (especially if a siren hacker turns around and uses that information to plan an attack). --Brett Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:52:43 -0500 From: Jeffrey Ollie Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens? To: "talk-us@openstreetmap.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett wrote: > Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? Because they are there isn't a good enough reason? > Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do > fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Without some proof I call FUD. Anyway, sunshine laws are for governments, not for individual citizens. I'm not expecting people to drop in on the local emergency management agency and ask for a map of all the sirens... -- Jeff Ollie -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6 ** ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Toby Murray wrote: > Kansas just tested them this morning. There is one on the roof of the > building I work in. But even looking at the high res (<1m) photos > available from the county GIS website, all I can see is "there is > something there" but I can't pick out a distinctive siren shape. This > would definitely take boots on the ground. Same here. > As for testing times, isn't that usually coordinated state-wide? Or is > it just local? I thought they did a full test of the emergency alert > system including sirens, TV and radio break-ins at the same time but > I'm not sure. On April 7th there was a state-wide drill in Iowa that included a test of the full Emergency Alert System. I think that's done annually. I think other tests are done on a per-system per-jurisdiction basis. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett wrote: > Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? Because they are there isn't a good enough reason? > You have to make some significant decisions of what kind of information to > include about the sirens (for example, without range and/or model, you cannot > derive projected coverage; without directional coverage you cannot identify > nearest covering siren). Right now I'm just interested in where they are... More information is welcome but obviously that can be more difficult to obtain. > Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do > fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Without some proof I call FUD. Anyway, sunshine laws are for governments, not for individual citizens. I'm not expecting people to drop in on the local emergency management agency and ask for a map of all the sirens... > Some jurisdictions (mostly cities) are open with their siren locations, some > of them are very protective (mostly those places whose sirens have been > subjected to attacks by siren hackers in the past or who have particularly > significant security concerns). I don't see how mapping sirens really increases the security concerns... Most civil defense sirens near me are mounted on tall towers and advertise their location quite loudly on a regular basis. The ones that I have mapped recently have no physical protection either, not even a fence around it (except one that is literally in someone's back yard). > Mapping site specific sirens (like those used for electric generation > facilities) can especially draw scrutiny. Well, hanging around an electric generation plant and surveiling it is likely to draw scrutiny no matter what you are looking for. > As for the feasibility, I recently did a project to map 210 sirens from > aerial photos and ground work, and it was virtually impossible without prior > knowledge of the siren locations and high resolution aerial oblique photos. > In all, it took about 60 hours of work (and that was with a list of > locations). Hey, I'm not expecting miracles! I was really expecting people to take a walk around their neighborhood and note the locations of the sirens, much like they map their favorite pub. Eventually we'll get them all... -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
Kansas just tested them this morning. There is one on the roof of the building I work in. But even looking at the high res (<1m) photos available from the county GIS website, all I can see is "there is something there" but I can't pick out a distinctive siren shape. This would definitely take boots on the ground. As for testing times, isn't that usually coordinated state-wide? Or is it just local? I thought they did a full test of the emergency alert system including sirens, TV and radio break-ins at the same time but I'm not sure. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: >>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: >>> >>> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the >>> international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are you kidding me? What part of > "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals > " > leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) > > Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. > wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, > the more likely it is to be selected. > >>> Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? >> >> Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking >> at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you >> know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery >> available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google >> imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think >> that's appropriate. > > Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own > example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a > proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map > is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? > >>> Perhaps we could start >>> researching which states/areas have active sirens? > > Better to mobilize the crowd to map them. We'll get better quality > from mappers than from an import. And mappers adding sirens are more > likely to tag the rest of the park with the playground, sport field an > water fountain. > >> Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in >> "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary >> to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is >> imminent severe weather. > > I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be > a tag as well? > > man_made=tower > siren=civil_defense > siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
Just wondering what would be the purpose of mapping civil defense sirens? You have to make some significant decisions of what kind of information to include about the sirens (for example, without range and/or model, you cannot derive projected coverage; without directional coverage you cannot identify nearest covering siren). Sirens are also one of those areas (like mapping major pipelines) that do fall under homeland security protections for sunshine laws. Some jurisdictions (mostly cities) are open with their siren locations, some of them are very protective (mostly those places whose sirens have been subjected to attacks by siren hackers in the past or who have particularly significant security concerns). Mapping site specific sirens (like those used for electric generation facilities) can especially draw scrutiny. As for the feasibility, I recently did a project to map 210 sirens from aerial photos and ground work, and it was virtually impossible without prior knowledge of the siren locations and high resolution aerial oblique photos. In all, it took about 60 hours of work (and that was with a list of locations). --Brett Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:41:37 -0500 From: Jeffrey Ollie Subject: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens? To: talk-us Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren However, I can't find any existing examples and either I'm tired or coming down with something but I can't really think of a good way to tag these either. As for rendering, we could use the International Civil Defense symbol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CivilDefence.svg Might make a good project of the week too... -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> >> Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking >> at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you >> know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery >> available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google >> imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think >> that's appropriate. > > Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own > example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a > proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map > is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? There are plenty of examples of ground-level photos of civil defense sirens in the Wikipedia article I linked... Linking to Google Maps to provide examples of how civil defense sirens appear in aerial photography is frowned upon I'm sure. > I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be > a tag as well? > > man_made=tower > siren=civil_defense I was also able to figure out that tagstat would let me do a search, and I found that there are 8 examples of man_made=siren, mostly in Europe I think. man_made=tower makes sense too, if you want to consider tall wooden poles a tower. > siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) Yes, that makes sense as well. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > >>> > >>> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > >>> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > >> > >> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if > the > >> international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are you kidding me? What part of > "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals > " > leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) > > Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. > wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, > the more likely it is to be selected. Sorry, the real reason I said that was because it's pretty difficult for remote people to see sirens from aerial imagery and the US ground force for mapping isn't huge (especially in the midwestern states where these sirens are most prevalent). It's still a good idea, though. I'll work on a Project of the Week page later this afternoon. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >>> >>> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it >>> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: >> >> That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the >> international folks aren't willing to help :). Are you kidding me? What part of "This is your Project of the Week. Make suggestions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/Proposals " leads you to think that suggestions aren't welcome? ;-) Please write up a draft Project of the Week. Example tags are great. wiki-format is great. Pro-tip: The closer you make it to press-ready, the more likely it is to be selected. >> Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? > > Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking > at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you > know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery > available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google > imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think > that's appropriate. Better to find an example on wikimedia commons, or to shoot your own example photo. The line between acceptable planning from a proprietary map, and unacceptable deriving data from a proprietary map is blurry enough to some. Why confuse it further? >> Perhaps we could start >> researching which states/areas have active sirens? Better to mobilize the crowd to map them. We'll get better quality from mappers than from an import. And mappers adding sirens are more likely to tag the rest of the park with the playground, sport field an water fountain. > Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in > "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary > to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is > imminent severe weather. I know of a place the tests at 1pm on Tuesday. Perhaps that should be a tag as well? man_made=tower siren=civil_defense siren:test= (something based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:acces ) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > >> > >> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > >> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if > the > > international folks aren't willing to help :). > > Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? > > Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking > at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you > know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery > available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google > imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think > that's appropriate. > > > Perhaps we could start > > researching which states/areas have active sirens? > > Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in > "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary > to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is > imminent severe weather. > > The folks over on "The Siren Board" http://www.airraidsirens.com/forums/index.php seem to have done a bunch of work on this already. At least here in Minnesota they've created a Google Map with a bunch of pins for sirens they've found. I believe Minnesota keeps siren locations in some GIS database somewhere. I've seen the shapefile before but forgot where. I wonder if other states do the same. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >> >> With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it >> would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the > international folks aren't willing to help :). > Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? Only if you have very very good imagery and know what you are looking at. In Google's higher resolution imagery you can see them if you know what to look for and then if there's street view imagery available you can confirm. Obviously you can't trace from Google imagery though. I'd link to an example on Google if people think that's appropriate. > Perhaps we could start > researching which states/areas have active sirens? Well, Iowa for sure and I'm sure most of the states that are in "Tornado Alley" have them and are well tested. In Iowa it's customary to test them at noon on the 1st Saturday of the month unless there is imminent severe weather. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Civil Defense Sirens?
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > With the start of Tornado season in the Midwest upon us, I thought it > would be interesting to map civil defense sirens: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_siren > > However, I can't find any existing examples and either I'm tired or > coming down with something but I can't really think of a good way to > tag these either. As for rendering, we could use the International > Civil Defense symbol: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CivilDefence.svg > > Might make a good project of the week too... > > That would be fun. I'm up for making that a "US Project of the Week" if the international folks aren't willing to help :). Are the rural ones visible from aerial imagery? Perhaps we could start researching which states/areas have active sirens? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
