Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Ian Dees wrote: Can you point to an example of a wash in the NHD data? I haven't seen one yet. Sorry, no. I saw wash referred to in http://nhd.usgs.gov/chapter1/index.html#_Toc435603829 and jumped to the conclusion that data existed. -- - Joseph Scanlan +1-702-455-3679 http://www.n7xsd.us/ j...@co.clark.nv.us (work) (not work) n7...@arrl.net - Never mind. --Emily Litella ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
I am also very interested in getting the NHD data into OSM. We have a few people here with plenty of experience working with USGS data, especially NHD, and I'll try to get their reactions. I am new to tagging and OSM in general but would like to get involved, particularly with roads and hydro. A few quick questions: 1) I would like to load our states (Delaware) NHD data using one of Ian's converters. Ian, does it make sense for us to start now and let you know which HUCs we've loaded, or should we wait until your data gets in? 2) Can features have more tags that what is on the Wiki, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:waterway? For example, can we leave the FCODE or FTYPE attributes in there? or add a reach code? or use landuse=water even though it's not in the official key-value list? 3) How would we tag the HUC boundaries, which are essentially watersheds? There are multiple levels of HUC groupings (4, 6, 8, 10, 12-digit HUCs), depending on what scale you're at. These would be areas, possibly using the natural or landuse or boundary keys? 4) I've used the online editor (Potlatch?) for simple editing and creating new features. I got JOSM up and running, which I believe I need to use for editing large number of features. What is the procedure if I need to replace features, for example, if there exists in OSM a river, lake (or road for that matter) where I have a more accurately digitized version of? It seems like I should be able to update/add tags in my own dataset then publish to OSM. Do I delete the existing version first? or maybe give it the same feature ID as in OSM and the replacement is done on the back end? - John John Callahan Geospatial Application Developer Delaware Geological Survey University of Delaware 227 Academy St, Newark DE 19716-7501 Tel: (302) 831-3584 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dgs.udel.edu David Carmean wrote: On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 06:19:09PM -0500, Ian Dees wrote: On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 6:08 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the mapping of FCode to OSM features is going to be very sparse, and I'm currently wishing we had an entire new set of hydrology=something feature tags :) There really are only a few features I'd like to see put into OSM: - rivers - lakes - swamp areas - drainage ditches - reservoirs All of these things have descriptions in NHD, but not all of them have descriptions in OSM. Perhaps we should make some tagging proposals, get them approved/discussed, then continue with the import. I've extracted the FCode table from the dataset for my area, and am mapping those to existing and proposed map features/tags as found on the wiki. We can add some selection criteria later. I can upload it to a wiki page when I'm finished. I think we need a new key, which will be of use in other scopes as well: existence. In particular, for hydrographic features it could have the values perennial, intermittent, or ephemeral. In other contexts, seasonal, event, etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 8:25 AM, John Callahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I am also very interested in getting the NHD data into OSM. We have a few people here with plenty of experience working with USGS data, especially NHD, and I'll try to get their reactions. I am new to tagging and OSM in general but would like to get involved, particularly with roads and hydro. A few quick questions: 1) I would like to load our states (Delaware) NHD data using one of Ian's converters. Ian, does it make sense for us to start now and let you know which HUCs we've loaded, or should we wait until your data gets in? I would prefer to wait until we figure out the tagging scheme before we start a mass import. On the main OSM discussion list they are also talking about a code of conduct for mass import/changes to the database, so we might want to wait a little to see what comes out of that. 2) Can features have more tags that what is on the Wiki, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:waterway? For example, can we leave the FCODE or FTYPE attributes in there? or add a reach code? or use landuse=water even though it's not in the official key-value list? Yes, in my tests I've been running, I keep all of the shapefile geometry attributes in the OSM export (including length_km, fcode, reachcode, etc.). Essentially, all we need to do is look at the FCODE and apply OSM-specific tags so that it makes sense in OSM-world. 3) How would we tag the HUC boundaries, which are essentially watersheds? There are multiple levels of HUC groupings (4, 6, 8, 10, 12-digit HUCs), depending on what scale you're at. These would be areas, possibly using the natural or landuse or boundary keys? I'm not entirely sure that we should import the HUC boundaries. They are easily accessible as shapefiles and don't really mean anything to the OSM folks. This is definitely up for debate and I'm by no means going to spend much time complaining if someone did import the boundaries. 4) I've used the online editor (Potlatch?) for simple editing and creating new features. I got JOSM up and running, which I believe I need to use for editing large number of features. What is the procedure if I need to replace features, for example, if there exists in OSM a river, lake (or road for that matter) where I have a more accurately digitized version of? It seems like I should be able to update/add tags in my own dataset then publish to OSM. Do I delete the existing version first? or maybe give it the same feature ID as in OSM and the replacement is done on the back end? In previous imports that have the potential to clobber previous OSM data, we tend to err on the side of the previous data (unless of course you created that previous data and are ok with getting rid of it) simply because it's someone's hard work. Perhaps they actually walked around with a sub-cm GPS and mapped the border of a river, for example. Also, I know that there are several people that have already imported pieces of their local HUCs, so we might want to make sure they are aware of the nationwide import. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:34:02 -0500 Ian Dees [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 8:25 AM, John Callahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I am also very interested in getting the NHD data into OSM. We have a few people here with plenty of experience working with USGS data, especially NHD, and I'll try to get their reactions. I am new to tagging and OSM in general but would like to get involved, particularly with roads and hydro. A few quick questions: 1) I would like to load our states (Delaware) NHD data using one of Ian's converters. Ian, does it make sense for us to start now and let you know which HUCs we've loaded, or should we wait until your data gets in? I would prefer to wait until we figure out the tagging scheme before we start a mass import. On the main OSM discussion list they are also talking about a code of conduct for mass import/changes to the database, so we might want to wait a little to see what comes out of that. Nooo. I live in northern MN and all we have around here are lakes! I really want them in yesterday grin. Please :-) More seriously, this is an important dataset that happens to be in the public domain and fills out the second most important feature of any usable map (in this area, anyway): where the water is. It is also the far more difficult map feature for us volunteers to map thoroughly and effectively. I would vote that this is a priority dataset and that even if the tags are not perfect or fully approved yet, it is sometimes better to do something and apologize after than to wait for approval first... We are, after all, still without a thorough-going consensus regarding US highway tagging. If we try to wait until we have a consensus on the NHD data, then we could be waiting a long time. The tagging will never be perfect, the world is too complex to ever fall into a few neat categories, so we make it do the best we can and then go for it. Just my 0.02 worth! (Or whatever its worth today ;-) Doug Morrison-Cleary ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Doug Morrison-Cleary [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Nooo. I live in northern MN and all we have around here are lakes! I really want them in yesterday grin. Please :-) Ok I suppose I should have been more explicit. The lakes and river areas seem to be the easiest to tag in OSM. They are bodies of water. The sticky parts are the marshes and canals/drainage ditches. Perhaps we could just start an import with tags that make sense for these things (e.g. natural=marsh). Either that or we only import the FCode/FTypes that have an obvious OSM tagging scheme right now and import the other stuff later. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:57:34AM -0500, Ian Dees wrote: On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Doug Morrison-Cleary [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Nooo. I live in northern MN and all we have around here are lakes! I really want them in yesterday grin. Please :-) Ok I suppose I should have been more explicit. The lakes and river areas seem to be the easiest to tag in OSM. They are bodies of water. The sticky parts are the marshes and canals/drainage ditches. Perhaps we could just start an import with tags that make sense for these things (e.g. natural=marsh). Either that or we only import the FCode/FTypes that have an obvious OSM tagging scheme right now and import the other stuff later. Here's a draft of what I've got so far: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Davetoo/NHD/FCODES Might not be the best format, but gives you an idea of what I've found so far. I think we need to be careful about the flowlines and in particular the artificial paths; I'm not yet convinced that any of the flowlines should be depicted on the map. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Ian Dees [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Doug Morrison-Cleary [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Nooo. I live in northern MN and all we have around here are lakes! I really want them in yesterday grin. Please :-) Ok I suppose I should have been more explicit. The lakes and river areas seem to be the easiest to tag in OSM. They are bodies of water. The sticky parts are the marshes and canals/drainage ditches. Perhaps we could just start an import with tags that make sense for these things (e.g. natural=marsh). Either that or we only import the FCode/FTypes that have an obvious OSM tagging scheme right now and import the other stuff later. I think you should import everything. Maybe. I'm not fully versed in the NHD, and I understand it has some things like flood channels which are filled only during 100-year floods or something... But even the more obscure water features might be useful to someone. Anyway, where the OSM tags line up, use those, otherwise you could invent some tags (like someone mentioned, hydrology or hydrography as a key name is a possibility, especially for things like flowlines which probably shouldn't be on the default map). I think you should always include a nhd:ftype and/or nhd:fcode tag to link back to the source. Otherwise you might force fit a bunch of fine-grained NHD categories into one broader OSM tag and then we would lose detail. Karl ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:55 AM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need to be careful about the flowlines and in particular the artificial paths; I'm not yet convinced that any of the flowlines should be depicted on the map. Artificial paths should be thought about (since they tend to contain a *lot* of nodes, which the database doesn't like because it uses up hard drive space), but the flowlines are needed to designate the centerlines for rivers. When a river is too thin to exist in the NHD Area shapefiles, the flowline is the only indication that the river exists. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 6:08 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 07:52:38AM -0500, Ian Dees wrote: I think it might be a good idea to standardize on FCode - tag mappings Is Matthew Perry still working on this as well? I don't think so. He made a great first try at a python script, but I think he stopped there. I think the mapping of FCode to OSM features is going to be very sparse, and I'm currently wishing we had an entire new set of hydrology=something feature tags :) There really are only a few features I'd like to see put into OSM: - rivers - lakes - swamp areas - drainage ditches - reservoirs All of these things have descriptions in NHD, but not all of them have descriptions in OSM. Perhaps we should make some tagging proposals, get them approved/discussed, then continue with the import. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 06:19:09PM -0500, Ian Dees wrote: On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 6:08 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the mapping of FCode to OSM features is going to be very sparse, and I'm currently wishing we had an entire new set of hydrology=something feature tags :) There really are only a few features I'd like to see put into OSM: - rivers - lakes - swamp areas - drainage ditches - reservoirs All of these things have descriptions in NHD, but not all of them have descriptions in OSM. Perhaps we should make some tagging proposals, get them approved/discussed, then continue with the import. I've extracted the FCode table from the dataset for my area, and am mapping those to existing and proposed map features/tags as found on the wiki. We can add some selection criteria later. I can upload it to a wiki page when I'm finished. I think we need a new key, which will be of use in other scopes as well: existence. In particular, for hydrographic features it could have the values perennial, intermittent, or ephemeral. In other contexts, seasonal, event, etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:40 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I begin to manually import some NHD shapefiles for my area, will I be wasting my time/others' time? How is the bulk import work progressing? How do you effect a freeze so we don't end up with duplicates? I think it might be a good idea to standardize on FCode - tag mappings first. What are you using the import the data? Also, I've got a very robust SHP - OSM (Now with Multipolygons!) converter written in Java coming soon. Currently it converts the geometries in the shapefile to OSM primitives and relations and applies the tags from the shapefile attributes. The OSM-specific tagging will have to be added with JOSM. I'm trying to think about a nice way to let the user apply OSM tags based on SHP attributes and the context that you're in (multipolygon inner, outer, linestring, etc.) Anyway, to answer your question, I think we first need to: 1) Standardize on FCode - Tags 2) Keep track of which HUC codes are imported and by whom. (I can start working on this as a wiki page) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NHD status?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 07:52:38AM -0500, Ian Dees wrote: On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:40 PM, David Carmean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I begin to manually import some NHD shapefiles for my area, will I be wasting my time/others' time? How is the bulk import work progressing? How do you effect a freeze so we don't end up with duplicates? I think it might be a good idea to standardize on FCode - tag mappings first. What are you using the import the data? Also, I've got a very robust SHP - OSM (Now with Multipolygons!) converter written in Java coming soon. Currently it converts the geometries in the shapefile to OSM primitives and relations and applies the tags from the shapefile attributes. The OSM-specific tagging will have to be added with JOSM. I'm trying to think about a nice way to let the user apply OSM tags based on SHP attributes and the context that you're in (multipolygon inner, outer, linestring, etc.) Anyway, to answer your question, I think we first need to: 1) Standardize on FCode - Tags 2) Keep track of which HUC codes are imported and by whom. (I can start working on this as a wiki page) I'm still experimenting. I've been looking at a commercial tool (ExpertGPS) to convert shp to gpx, and then GPSBabel to convert to OSM for use in JOSM. I'm also using commercial GIS software (Manifold) to work with the shapefiles at the beginning of the process. I get the advantage of being able to graphically select/edit features, but I don't yet have any way to translate shapefile attributes to osm tags. Should we start a new wiki page to document the NHD FCode -- OSM Tag mapping? I've just begun looking at the NHD technical instructions. I think we might want to do some use-case analysis to help decide what to include and exclude. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
