Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
This is still treacherous ground. Say you compared Yahoo and Microsoft - and they had the same name. It doesn't matter - the real owner of the copyright to that data is Navteq; it's still a single source, and you could still be caught by copy traps. It's always better to rely on sources without copyright ambiguities.From: Hilton Long seldom.s...@verizon.netTo: talk-us@openstreetmap.orgSent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:14:18 AMSubject: Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question This discussion about facts versus “creative spark” relates to a question I raised earlier about street names, which may only be available on commercial databases like Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft “Live Earth”. I propose that when Google and Yahoo agree that the name of the street is “Main Street”, it is a fact, and no longer possesses that “creative spark” that might exist if somebody creating an easter egg spelled it “Maine Street”. The counties or municipalities may not have the data in a convenient form, and street signs may not exist. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:29:20PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: On Feb 26, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: Because the legal jurisdiction in which OSM is based is *not* the US, This is an important topic. We should consult OpenStreetMap's lawyer. With no knowledge of which legal system applies, we can't do anything sensible. Huh? The doctrine to follow is simple: if there is any chance someone could claim the data is not more free than CC-By, then don't upload it. If you're not sure, don't upload it. If you think you're sure, but not 100% sure, don't upload it. The OSM policy has always been If you're asking where the line is, you're way too close to it. I see no reason not to keep behaving that way. Consulting a lawyer won't get you anything different anyway; with so little case law, the answers are always Maybe. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
Please read the NASA Open Source License. In it you will very clearly find the position that FedGov-produced works are not copyrightable FOR US CITIZENS. That license is written as FedGov works ARE copyrighted for everyone else. So yeah, there's a line, and no, we can't avoid the line, and yes, OSM should have a pro-bono lawyer who can give us opinions about what is a reasonable risk and what is not a reasonable risk. Asking for zero risk is not reasonable. If you want zero risk, don't get out of bed. Wait, you could still be killed in your sleep by a falling airplane like the guy in Buffalo. There is no way to stay away from the line. On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:29:20PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: On Feb 26, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: Because the legal jurisdiction in which OSM is based is *not* the US, This is an important topic. We should consult OpenStreetMap's lawyer. With no knowledge of which legal system applies, we can't do anything sensible. Huh? The doctrine to follow is simple: if there is any chance someone could claim the data is not more free than CC-By, then don't upload it. If you're not sure, don't upload it. If you think you're sure, but not 100% sure, don't upload it. The OSM policy has always been If you're asking where the line is, you're way too close to it. I see no reason not to keep behaving that way. Consulting a lawyer won't get you anything different anyway; with so little case law, the answers are always Maybe. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:29:21PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: Please read the NASA Open Source License. In it you will very clearly find the position that FedGov-produced works are not copyrightable FOR US CITIZENS. That license is written as FedGov works ARE copyrighted for everyone else. Arguing the finer points of copyright law when you're not a lawyer is foolish. I apologize for appealing to common sense. I apologize for not sending this discussion to legal-talk earlier; now I feel the need to unsubscribe from *this* list as well as that one. Best Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Feb 26, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:29:21PM -0500, Russ Nelson wrote: Please read the NASA Open Source License. In it you will very clearly find the position that FedGov-produced works are not copyrightable FOR US CITIZENS. That license is written as FedGov works ARE copyrighted for everyone else. Arguing the finer points of copyright law when you're not a lawyer is foolish. I apologize for appealing to common sense. You *do* know that Abraham Lincoln never went to law school, right? The idea that the law is only for lawyers is similar to the idea that coding is only for CS graduates (and since I'm not one ... you can be sure that I don't support that idea). I apologize for not sending this discussion to legal-talk earlier; now I feel the need to unsubscribe from *this* list as well as that one. It sounds like you'd prefer not to talk about such matters here. That is meet, right, and proper. I will desist. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 08:42:18AM +, Dale Puch wrote: A follow up on the CA case http://www.cfac.org/content/index.php/cfac-news/legal_development/ Specifically: The county also claimed that it has a federal copyright in the basemap. It argued that copyright protection authorizes the county to condition release of records, under freedom of information laws like California?s Public Records Act, with restrictions on the requester?s use of the records or sharing of the records with others. The Court rejected this claim, agreeing with the Coalition that state freedom of information laws preclude a state agency?s reliance on federal copyright unless state law clearly permits it for the specific records in dispute. The Court stated: ?We conclude that end user restrictions [on disclosed records] are incompatible with the purposes and operation of the CPRA.? So this case seems to open up California GIS data to the same extent as Florida. This is interesting, but makes me feel uneasy: the entire point of OSM is to be as Legally Far From Hot Water as possible, and directly contradicting something the GIS department *wants*, even if the supreme court slapped them on the wrist and sent them to the corner, seems to be a dangerous idea to me... not because OSM could gt sued and lose, but because it could get sued at all... I'd rather us ask, and if people tell us no, then not uploaad. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Feb 25, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: This is interesting, but makes me feel uneasy: the entire point of OSM is to be as Legally Far From Hot Water as possible, and directly contradicting something the GIS department *wants*, even if the supreme court slapped them on the wrist and sent them to the corner, seems to be a dangerous idea to me... not because OSM could gt sued and lose, but because it could get sued at all... Anyone can be sued for anything at any time. You don't want to set case law, but once it's been set, it's the GIS department's problem. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 06:43:00AM -0800, Spencer Riddile wrote: The town of Blacksburg, VA has some GIS data publicly available on a website. There is also U.S. Forest Service data for the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest. I would like to upload some of this to OSM. Is that OK? Any advice? Thanks! Publicly available and PUblic domain are not the same. I recommend talking to the city and asking them what their policy is with regard to their Geodata. (Seattle, for example, publishes data aon the web for 'personal use only', 'not to be used commercially', etc.) Check with the city, ask them waht they think. They'll pobably love you for even noticing :) If you share a link, then we can probably help explore a bit more what the source of the data nad rights associated with it are. Best Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
For some quick visualization with OSM data, Merkaator now can read shp files as well, but less options for the display. Asking the GIS department about the data is generally the best way to find out about the data. As a general rule US local, state and national GIS data should be in the public domain due to... The freedom of information act I think, and the clasification of GIS data. A few places that have been selling the data have taken convincing via a lawsuit, but have so far lost. Usually it seems to be about parcel data. A possible exceptions is if the goverment licenced exisisting comercial data, rather than buying rights to it, or collecting it themselves. But that should be very rare. Also if the other conversion scripts are a bit hard to get working, take a look at Ian's shp-to-osm java app for converting. It is a lot less technical to use. http://redmine.yellowbkpk.com/projects/list_files/geo Dale On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Christopher Schmidt crschm...@metacarta.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 07:38:03AM -0800, Spencer Riddile wrote: Christopher, I sent an email to the GIS Coordinator of Blacksburg to check whether the data is public domain. Cool! Do you have your own hosted version of OSM and that is how you were able to add the buildings? If I get permission to upload those other layers, what method do you recommend? Nope. What I've done is: * Set up Mapnik + OGC Server to serve a WMS. * Opened qgis, a Desktop GIS Client. * Added the OSM WMS * Opened the map properties, checked the 'enable on the fly transformation' checkbox * Added the blacksburg, va Buildings layer. * Export to PNG. (One of the things that people tned to fail to take into account in OSM is that there are pretty great GIS visualization tools out there already...) Using OSM tools, I'd recommend the 'polyshp2osm' tool in http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/import/shp2osm/ , but you'll need some technical expertise to manage the conversion and the upload. If you don't have any, there may be other people on this list who could help with conversion and managing the upload. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Dale Puch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Public Domain Non-GPS Data Question
A good summary,Chris, and I incorporate your disclaimer by reference. It's all very complicated, made more so by supreme court decisions which make it clear that facts about the world are not subject to copyright. You can't copyright the blue of the sky. It simply is; not something anyone created; and without creativity, copyright law simply doesn't apply. All that does is drive the decision point to the creativity expressed in a dataset. Clearly there is much in OSM, in the choice of tags that someone puts on the data. You would think that the law of a country would be in the public domain, and ours is, sort-of. Westlaw numbers the pages of these public-domain laws, and lawyers and judges make reference to these page numbers. Somehow they managed to convince the Supreme Court that they are being creative in the order of the numbers, the size of the pages, the location of the numbers on the page, etc, all of which ends up being copyrighted. So you can GET the laws themselves in the public domain, but in order for them to be useful, you have to buy them from Westlaw. All of that exposition is to let you know that creativity can be judged on some pretty bare characteristics. Parcel locations are a fact of the world. So are the parcel owners. But who knows, maybe the format of the shapefile is considered to be copyrighted? Unless it's: 1) the work of U.S. Government employees, or 2) has no copyright and predates the US entry into the Berne Convention, or 3) explicitly licensed under a license compatible with OSM's license, or 4) has had its copyright expire (a complicated topic; when registration was required, so was a renewal mid-way, plus the copyright duration has been changed several times). then you can't use it. Even when you do, you should always import a dataset under a dataset-specific username. That way, if it turns out that the importer was incorrect about 1, 2, 3, or 4, the data can be removed. The law recognizes the concept of an innocent infringer -- where you thought you had permission to use a work -- but you have to immediately stop copying if you want a judge to believe that you're innocent. On Feb 24, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: * US Government Work: Public Domain * Florida Government Work: Public Domain * Most places: Can get *access* to GIS data -- often for a fee, occasionally for free. * Many places: GIS data is considered copyrightable * Any places not specifically mentioned: Unless there is a clear statement of rights that makes it clear that it is okay to OSM, it's best to ask. Even *if* there is, it's often still best to ask, because it can help you get your local GIS people interested in OSM. One more time: This is personal opinion, does not reflect on any legal opinion, nor on the legal opinions of MetaCarta or any of its subsidiaries or stuff like that. Just want to make clear the distinction between 'free' as in 'access' and 'free' as in 'license'. Generally speaking, if you have to pay for the former, you're likely going to run into someone who's arguing against the latter... Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
