Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[Spencer Gardner]

I agree that OSM tags related to bicycle infrastructure could be expanded.
However, I'm not convinced many of the situations raised in this discussion
can't already be addressed by existing tags (e.g. vehicle=no for a street
with no vehicular access).

Bike boulevards are especially tricky, since their design and
implementation can vary significantly. It would seem more appropriate to
treat them as a relation, since it's effectively a branded corridor which
may or may not have any special engineering treatments. Madison, WI, for
example, has several bike boulevards that are regular streets with
virtually no special design but they have blue signs with a bicycle symbol.
Some (myself included) would argue that these are no more or less useful to
a bicyclist than a regular residential street, so giving them special
treatment in OSM would seem misleading. Better to tag the actual design
features (crossing islands, access restrictions) than to rely on a vague
concept.


On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Mike N  wrote:

> I have tagged 2 local living_streets that don't quite meet the strict
> European definition, but they are blocked by bollards, which are rarely
> dropped to allow service vehicles to enter.
>
> On 3/23/2017 9:27 PM, Nathaniel V. Kelso wrote:
>
>> The existing OSM wiki documented tags for bicycle needs to grow a bit to
>> describe things like bike boulevards, greenwaves, and buffered_lanes.
>>
>
>  Thanks for the detail - I also get the feeling that OSM tags should be
> expanded to cover more variations  of bike infrastructure.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[Mike N]

I have tagged 2 local living_streets that don't quite meet the strict 
European definition, but they are blocked by bollards, which are rarely 
dropped to allow service vehicles to enter.


On 3/23/2017 9:27 PM, Nathaniel V. Kelso wrote:

The existing OSM wiki documented tags for bicycle needs to grow a bit to
describe things like bike boulevards, greenwaves, and buffered_lanes.


 Thanks for the detail - I also get the feeling that OSM tags should be 
expanded to cover more variations  of bike infrastructure.




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Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[Bill Ricker]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> I have used the living street tag once in the USA, and that is for this
> street which is completely blocked by gates except for a side way in that
> locals know.  I’m sure there are other similar situations around the USA,
> but they are indeed rare.
>


​There was a catalog of USA Livable Streets here or elsewhere recently.

​A quasi-relative once lived here
   http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/248462064 ​
in Brooklyn (Kings Co, NY) within the ancient precinct of Ft Hamilton.

Researching these people caused me to notice that these houses front on a
pedestrian way "Hamilton Walk" ("highway=footway"
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5677149) and  back onto an alley
("highway=service" http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/251101956)  .

Not sure if this counts as Livable / Living Street ...  ​but it looks very
livable.​


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[meased]

Every instance of highway=living_street I have come across in the US has
been people mistagging because snazzy European living streets sound so much
cooler (and render so much cooler) that regular old boring
highway=residential, bicycle=designated, sidewalk=both (which these streets
actually are). Being a dead end or a cul-de-sac does not make it a living
street. I agree with you 100%, Peter.

I would support a maproulette challenge to eliminate all of these in the
US, but that's just my $0.02.


On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:

> I wanted to give a wider audience to this changeset discussion:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46967476
>
> Some Mapzen folks have been changing highway=residential to
> highway=living_street for routes that are designated as "Greenways."
>  There's a related blog post too:
>
> https://mapzen.com/blog/bike-poll/
>
> I haven't really seen any roads in the USA that would be similar in nature
> to the living street designation found throughout Europe where kids are
> allowed to play in the street because the cars are required to go walking
> speed.
>
> --Peter
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[Nathaniel V. Kelso]

As the editor of the tag in question, and a former resident of this
neighbourhood, I'll offer my perspective.

Tiffany Avenue is is a minor local street that is an important thru way for
bicycles and pedestrians in this neighbourhood and for those traveling from
the south side of the city to the north side. The road's primary use is for
bicycles and it's secondary use is for parking cars and access to just
houses on that street.

For cars it's more like a cul-de-sac: they can get in, but they can't get
out as the north side is blocked off (but there is special connection for
bikes and walkers). Also notice in the Mapillary image the speed hump
traffic calming here. The Mapillary photo doesn't show it but the route has
very high bicycle usage comparable to the car usage.

This road physical different than the surrounding highway=residential
roads, and is culturally designated for bicycle use. So if
highway=residential is not a good fit, and you take issue with
highway=living_street, what's a better tag? Sometimes the same OSM tag has
different meanings in different countries already so it doesn't bother me a
lot that the United States might have a slightly different definition (for
highway=living_street) than Europe because our built environments are
different.

Tiffany Avenue is also San Francisco's only "bike boulevard", while in
Portland and Seattle there are much more extensive officially designated
"bike boulevards". The existing OSM wiki documented tags for bicycle needs
to grow a bit to describe things like bike boulevards, greenwaves, and
buffered_lanes.

One way of tagging this might be bicycle:designated=greenway. Or maybe
bicycle=greenway (and bicycle=greenwave for timed lights). But then we get
into tagging for (older) renderer debates ;)

Peter mentioned the Mapzen bicycle map that I worked on. The better blog
post is: https://mapzen.com/blog/bike-map/.

Part of the reason I've beed editing here (and elsewhere) is we've received
a lot of feedback that the existing OpenStreetMap bicycle tags powering the
bike map aren't matching with people's local knowledge and expectations
(and all 3 of these cities are "well mapped"). I don't have a lot of
opinions here about specific tags, as long as the tags can capture the
ground truth and local expectations.

I created GIST listing out which OpenStreetMap tags the Mapzen bike map is
using to display bike route colors:
https://gist.github.com/nvkelso/fe46993c6c334b52c4b9d6cf5aabffa7

Thanks for your feedback!

_Nathaniel




On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> I agree that that Tiffany Avenue is just a normal street, not a “living
> street”.  Our driver even drove it a few times and you can see it pretty
> clearly on Mapillary.
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=Tt-musXAKC5Qpuo7OAjyQA;
> focus=photo=37.74456457237605=-122.42159001944155=19.
> 941223418815095
>
>
> I have used the living street tag once in the USA, and that is for this
> street which is completely blocked by gates except for a side way in that
> locals know.  I’m sure there are other similar situations around the USA,
> but they are indeed rare.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11616350#map=18/40.73246/-74.24675
>
> There is an interesting story behind it:  http://www.nytimes.com/1993/
> 12/06/nyregion/plan-for-gates-call-for-pickets-bordering-
> newark-maplewood-finds-proposal-causes.html
>
> (sorry, no Mapillary for this one - I should drive over there with cameras
> sometime!)
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 8:26 PM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
>
> I wanted to give a wider audience to this changeset discussion:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46967476
>
> Some Mapzen folks have been changing highway=residential to
> highway=living_street for routes that are designated as "Greenways."
>  There's a related blog post too:
>
> https://mapzen.com/blog/bike-poll/
>
> I haven't really seen any roads in the USA that would be similar in nature
> to the living street designation found throughout Europe where kids are
> allowed to play in the street because the cars are required to go walking
> speed.
>
> --Peter
>
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Re: [Talk-us] greenways tagging

[Bryan Housel]

I agree that that Tiffany Avenue is just a normal street, not a “living 
street”.  Our driver even drove it a few times and you can see it pretty 
clearly on Mapillary.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=Tt-musXAKC5Qpuo7OAjyQA=photo=37.74456457237605=-122.42159001944155=19.941223418815095
 



I have used the living street tag once in the USA, and that is for this street 
which is completely blocked by gates except for a side way in that locals know. 
 I’m sure there are other similar situations around the USA, but they are 
indeed rare.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11616350#map=18/40.73246/-74.24675 


There is an interesting story behind it:  
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/06/nyregion/plan-for-gates-call-for-pickets-bordering-newark-maplewood-finds-proposal-causes.html
 


(sorry, no Mapillary for this one - I should drive over there with cameras 
sometime!)

Bryan




> On Mar 23, 2017, at 8:26 PM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
> 
> I wanted to give a wider audience to this changeset discussion:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46967476 
> 
> 
> Some Mapzen folks have been changing highway=residential to 
> highway=living_street for routes that are designated as "Greenways."  There's 
> a related blog post too:
> 
> https://mapzen.com/blog/bike-poll/ 
> 
> I haven't really seen any roads in the USA that would be similar in nature to 
> the living street designation found throughout Europe where kids are allowed 
> to play in the street because the cars are required to go walking speed.
> 
> --Peter
> 
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