[Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to change partners.
Ok, no one knows how to grow a good ( I mean excellent ! ) man-dancer. GOOD ! Now, much more practical question. When one has 4 couples who do not change partners per, say, other 6-7 couples, it is a real disaster. These people just dump the energy ( not to speak that they needed it most ). Especially if the class is more difficult than average, and if there are some extra women. What to do with it? I am ready to tell them to leave if they do not start to change partners. I already used all persuasion power I know of, telling stories that it is good for them, bla-bla-bla, and for forth.. Can anyone help me with an advice how it works in practice? Note: all students are of the same level. Actually those who change are better, and they do not mind practicing with less advanced stubborn not-changing students. Or may be I am wrong? Should I dump those who are without a partner? Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
Keith wrote: Just what skills are you talking about Jeff? When you say ... leading much of anything is lost on them, it sounds like you're talking about figures. In BsAs, pretty much all anybody dances in the milongas is Walking, Ochos and Giros. It's all about improvising to the music Jeff, not the figures. I actually don't really know many figures at all. I am referring to attempting to get, e.g., a clockwise turn that the woman doesn't automatically resolve into an ocho. Heck last week I had one so bad I actually tried letting go of her in the middle of it and she *still* did a solo ocho. I could have been across the room for all I could influence her. How do you politely indicate to someone like that they need to actually pay attention to the lead for a change? Women talk about a man's delicate ego but forget they have one too. I see tango as an interaction: I offer something and then follow how she resolves it. If there are only a couple of resolutions women seem to know or at least bother practicing up to any level of fluency, what to do? I'm starting to think like Manuel and just avoid certain women on the floor. Jeff G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] retaining men in urbana
Keith wrote: If I could answer on Joe's behalf, because I sometimes have the same problem. The label is 'Ballroom dance studio thereby implying that the instructor is a ballroom instructor who cannot teach Tango as it'd danced in Argentina. Since Joe also teaches Argentine Tango classes, why not call it a Tango dance studio? Or just a dance studio. But I think we all know why Ron called it a Ballroom dance studio. Keith, HK Since I live in Urbana and know both Ron and Joe and have studied with them, let me shove your foot further in your mouth. Joe teaches Argentine Tango (billed as such) at a large dance studio called the Regent Ballroom, which teaches (surprise) ballroom, among other things. He is not the proprietor and he is not going to be able to change the name of it. Don't tell him to. Ron wasn't just calling him names, contrary to what you think. Joe does teach open embrace and he and Carlota are very good at it. Yes we all know Ron loves apilado style but that doesn't mean when he makes a statement of fact it is a barb. Joe and Carlota are really nice people and they do a lot for tango in the community by taking on the thankless tasks of doing the long-running Wed. night milongas downtown plus others. Generally Ron and Joe have good relations and work well at keeping tango up and running in the area. A hearty thank you to both of them. Both realize they cater to different tastes and both are mature, responsible adults who accept this. Both also understand that some sort of ego-induced rivalry would divide the community to the point tango would be severely and negatively impacted, with me among others as the losers. I've never seen either of them behave with anything other than professional decorum towards each other. Don't set up an antagonism that doesn't exist. Clear on this? Jeff G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to change partners.
The main reason I don't change partners in the workshops is that most people or at least too many people are in way over their head. I prefer to change partners, but when the women in class don't have basic following skills, it makes it a waste of my time and money. So when I take group classes, I usually bring my own partner or find one who is at the appropriate level and suggest we partner up. If you want people to switch, you need to make sure that : a) the class is gender balanced, or at least role balanced. if it's a beginner class, don't expect men to come back if they have to dance with other men. It took me a long time to get over my reluctance to dance with men. To make that happen I would suggest have the (more) advanced class first, and then offer to the/some more advanced students access for free or other incentive to volunteer to the (more) beginner class to cover gender balance. b) all the people in class are at the appropriate level. And by that, I mean actual level, not how many months/years they've been dancing. c) there is usually a mayhem when a switch is asked. Everybody starts moving like chickens with their head cut off. Make that organized. One teaching couple used a technique that I found interesting. At the beginning of the class they identified the gender larger in numbers (it was men in that case), and then they made them get a partner and sit in a circle. Then they placed the leftovers in between the couples. Then they asked the men to memorize the exact spot in the room where they were. When a switch was called, the men would bring their current follower at the designated spot and then the followers would move one to the right. This insured that everyone danced with everyone and it encouraged people to switch. Sorin my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com On 10/11/07, Igor Polk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, no one knows how to grow a good ( I mean excellent ! ) man-dancer. GOOD ! Now, much more practical question. When one has 4 couples who do not change partners per, say, other 6-7 couples, it is a real disaster. These people just dump the energy ( not to speak that they needed it most ). Especially if the class is more difficult than average, and if there are some extra women. What to do with it? I am ready to tell them to leave if they do not start to change partners. I already used all persuasion power I know of, telling stories that it is good for them, bla-bla-bla, and for forth.. Can anyone help me with an advice how it works in practice? Note: all students are of the same level. Actually those who change are better, and they do not mind practicing with less advanced stubborn not-changing students. Or may be I am wrong? Should I dump those who are without a partner? Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to change partners
Interesting situation. Some people arrive at a tango as couples, and some arrive as singles. The singles may be unhappy with the limited number of partners in the class if the couples don't participate in the rotation. There may also be a gender imbalance, which will fall more heavily on the singles if the couples don't participate in the rotation. The instructor knows that rotation can help with learning, but rotation also helps alleviate some of the problems the instructor may face with the singles in the class. Why might the couples be less interested in rotation? 1) They don't know enough about tango to know that rotation helps with learning. 2) They don't know the people with whom they will be rotating, and find the idea of dancing in a close embrace with a stranger to be uncomfortable. 3) They feel threatened by seeing their own partner dancing with someone else. 4) They will share in any gender imbalance even though they didn't help create it. 5) They view some/many/most of the singles as less desirable dance partners. (Why are the singles without a partner?) 6) They don't see everyone as equally skilled in dancing, and either don't want to embarass themselves by dancing poorly with someone who isn't a close friend or don't want to waste their time dancing someone isn't as skilled. 7) Some people arrive at tango classes with bad breath, body odors, or wearing heavy cologne or perfume, and some people may not wish to be exposed to such scents or have such scents transferred to themselves. Sticking with one's own partner means that all those issues have already been worked out. An instructor's rush to force rotation--rather than simply to encourage it--can actually create an environment that is actually unfriendly/hostile to couples. Tango is an intimate dance, and intimacy is voluntary. Instructors need to respect the voluntary nature of intimacy if they are to they are to convey a real sense of tango. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Ocho queens-bad leads-good leads
How can anyone ever attempt to resolve this thread on a computer list? Completely ridiculous. This is an example of what drives me crazy about this list. You can have both sides. In classes when I teach, there are women who go into the cross whether they are led or not. Why? Because some teacher told them they always have to cross in the 8 count basic on what is it step 5? No one ever taught the leaders how to lead a cross nor followers how to find the lead even if it is there. So she just always crosses. On the other side, there are leaders as mentioned above who do not know how to lead a cross, so the woman never crosses when the man wants her to because she doesn't know that is what he wants. When we ask students what do you want to learn? The men usually say I need to learn to lead the cross. The women usually say I have problems following. These are not beginning dancers. I do not think it does anyone any good on this list to point fingers, blame, and insist that they are right. Telling someone that the reason a woman wants to do infinite ochos is because they do not know how to lead is not fair. You don't know that. I agree, the ability to be a good follower is just as important as to be a good leader. AND...there is always that remote possibility that we are not as good a dancer as we think we are. I have found that women dancers develop much faster than male dancers. The women become impatient and do not want to spend more money on classes when they feel that the men don't dance all that well. Men either drop out or continue to try and develop their skills. Women need good leaders in order to develop into good followers. How else are they supposed to learn? So if you guys have all these wonderful leaders, why aren't the women picking up on this? Why aren't they becoming more skilled? Do the guys not want to dance with women who they think do not meet their criteria to dance with them? Are the guys not as good as they think they are? I ask this out of my own experiences. I started to learn to dance tango in the U.S. I spent 4 years commuting to BA before moving here permanently. I did not take millions of classes or private lessons. I just danced. Learning from partners, from milongueros. My ability to become a good follower was from dancing with good leaders. I remember in the first years that I came here having out of body experiences - knowing I had just executed something because of the lead, not because I knew how to do it. At times I would remember myself thinking so that is the lead for this. Obviously not everyone can come here. Maybe a little less finger pointing will help. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to change partners
With all due respect, Group class structure almost always infers that there will be rotation. Those are the expectations in every group class I have been in, in the last decade I have been dancing. Rotation makes you a better dancer because you don't end up 'memorizing' your regular partner's idiosyncracies and consequently become unable to [lead/follow] well with others. It also integrates you socially into the dance community, introduces you to the other dancers systematically, and keeps you from ignoring all your other fellow dancers. I have different partners all night and I prefer it that way. I don't want to be stuck standing around too much in a small group class with 2-3 extra of one gender and 4 couples who aren't switching. It isn't fair to me, as a class member. I think that if couples don't want to switch and dance with others, they should seriously consider only taking privates. Or they can attend group classes set up for couples only. If there are so many couples that feel this way (ie, 3 or 4 couples who won't switch in a single class), then there is obviously demand for a separate couples only class. One dance teacher here in the Detroit area has a method for dealing with non-switchers. He makes it known in the beginning of the first lesson that everyone is expected to rotate. He allows couples to dance only with each other, but then they are not permitted in the lesson circle. The couples are in the corners on the outside of the circle and learn and practice out there. Then when he puts on a song for the students to dance all the way through, the couples are expected to mix in with the rotating students so they can all practice navigating in the line of dance. As to gender imbalance, at the U of M tango club lessons they ask the 'extras' who didn't have a partner the last time, to select their partner first. That works well for making sure everyone dances. The other helpful technique is to make sure the dancers rotate more frequently when there is a gender imbalance so that no one goes more than five minutes without a practice partner. That being said, dancers certainly do skip past certain other dancers in the rotation and refuse to dance with them, in every social dance I have ever studied. I admit to having refused to rotate a handful of times over the last 10 years. I have done this only where a lead has repeatedly bullied me about doing my part wrong and the teacher did not come to my assistance -- or when there has been a serious hygiene problem. And I feel bad about doing it even then. If I ever need to skip someone, I will go to the bathroom shortly before that point in the lesson and then join the circle in a different place, which I think is socially less hurtful than deliberately showing everyone else that you are skipping over a certain someone in the rotation. meaning of life wrote: stephen, that is a great list. i would like to add a few more. (as an often non-switcher) 1) some people come to class to spend time with their spouse (or whatever), their agenda is quality time, not to be the best tango dancer. 2) sometimes, especially with night classes, someone has just had a bad day, and wants to feel comfortable. making them move will make them uncomfortable, and they will just not come to class, because they know it will be bad a few other things. 1) grabbing someone and moving them can be a real disaster. you will, at best, loose the couple. 2) if you make the switching for this song only, with a better partner, you can probably get switching to begin to occur. as long as the couples know that they can wife up soon, they will be ok for a song or two. 3) i have learned alot from watching my wife dance with better dancers, if i am watching, i feel still connected, and learn how i should be moving. if she watches me dancing with someone else, she learns how i am leading, and how she can do her part. the one watches thing, begins the process of separation being a good thing. a wiley instructor can use watching to prove that separating, at least once in a while, is a critical part of learning to dance well. 4) show some respect to the couple, acknowledge the spouse when you want to touch or dance with someone. this will drop alot of the barriers of couples being uncomfortable about being close with someone else. 5) and mega dittos to stephens observation Tango is an intimate dance, and intimacy is voluntary. Instructors need to respect the voluntary nature of intimacy if they are to they are to convey a real sense of tango. dance on david The TangonistaSponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music To: Tango-L@mit.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:40:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to change partners Interesting
Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
Its not unusual for a follower to do something you don't expect. I try not to put it down to either poor leading or poor following, but it doesn't make me give up or not want to dance with a particular follower. They all have their good points :-), but some followers just need a little more assistance with certain steps than others. If I don't have the skills to give them more assistance then that is something I would need to work on. So generally if something has not worked I just lead the same step again, but a little more firmly. And if it still doesn't work maybe a third time. If it doesn't work at that stage then there are two possibilities. The follower may have a certain way of doing a certain step. You can still have a nice dance if you just lead that one step the way the follower is expecting. But I find that pretty rare. In my experience usually the problem is I only led a particular step with people 'expecting' it before. In that case I get help from a more experienced dancer. Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Sent: Friday, 12 October 2007 3:50 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas] Of course, Jeff, I'm sure the reason couldn't possibly be your poor leading. Personally, I've never had a woman ... automatically resolve into an ocho. If you want something different, Jeff, lead something different. And if you can't - don't blame the woman. Keith, HK On Thu Oct 11 22:05 , Jeff Gaynor sent: I actually don't really know many figures at all. I am referring to attempting to get, e.g., a clockwise turn that the woman doesn't automatically resolve into an ocho. Heck last week I had one so bad I actually tried letting go of her in the middle of it and she *still* did a solo ocho. I could have been across the room for all I could influence her. How do you politely indicate to someone like that they need to actually pay attention to the lead for a change? Women talk about a man's delicate ego but forget they have one too. I see tango as an interaction: I offer something and then follow how she resolves it. If there are only a couple of resolutions women seem to know or at least bother practicing up to any level of fluency, what to do? I'm starting to think like Manuel and just avoid certain women on the floor. Jeff G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to changepartners.
I went to a very similar teacher in BsAs. But on this occasion there were so many more women than men that the teacher just left the leaders in one half of the room with half of the followers and took the other half of the women down to the other half of the room for him to dance with one after another. Oh and did I mention they were all the youngest followers wearing the least clothes :-). Needless to say the leaders got very little attention for the rest of the class... Victor Bennetts -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacob Eggers Sent: Friday, 12 October 2007 5:05 AM To: Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How to break couples who do not want to changepartners. One teacher down in Buenos Aires had a technique that really worked for both gender ballance and getting people to switch partners. He would let people practice for a few songs during which he was almost continually taking followers by the hand and placing them with their next partners. In this way, no one was waiting to practice for more than 30 seconds, even though there was a large gender imballance. The behavior also fit his personality, I don´t think that this would work for every teacher. On 10/11/07, Igor Polk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, no one knows how to grow a good ( I mean excellent ! ) man-dancer. GOOD ! Now, much more practical question. When one has 4 couples who do not change partners per, say, other 6-7 couples, it is a real disaster. These people just dump the energy ( not to speak that they needed it most ). Especially if the class is more difficult than average, and if there are some extra women. What to do with it? I am ready to tell them to leave if they do not start to change partners. I already used all persuasion power I know of, telling stories that it is good for them, bla-bla-bla, and for forth.. Can anyone help me with an advice how it works in practice? Note: all students are of the same level. Actually those who change are better, and they do not mind practicing with less advanced stubborn not-changing students. Or may be I am wrong? Should I dump those who are without a partner? Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
